Join Panu and Thomas for a thought provoking conversation with Janet Lewis, a founding member of the Climate Psychiatry Alliance. Janet reflected on her experiences of living through disasters and what this has taught her. She explained the therapy concept of “containment”—the ability to experience and hold space for strong emotional expressions in ourselves and others—and how this applies to climate coping and resilience. We have many options for creating a sense of containment: intellectually, emotionally, within supportive relationships and through engaging and taking action. Janet observed that in this time “We are either within or between disasters” and it is important to hold open this creative space. It is the ethical responsibility of those of us not in disaster to work on climate mitigation and adaptation. Janet also spoke of finding solace in the nature of complex systems and possibility of emergence of new forms and ideas.

Thomas and Panu took time to speak about trees, beings great and small with whom we share the planet, and the disenfranchised grief that we suffer when we witness the loss of trees and forests, in our own neighborhoods and across the world. Join us to listen in on the conversation, and let us know what you feel about this issue.

Panu and Thomas spoke with Susan Bodnar, a clinical psychologist who practices in New York City and does teaching and research at Columbia University’s Teachers College. The trio discussed Susan’s earlier pathfinding papers like “Wasted and Bombed; Clinical Enactments of a changing relationship to the Earth.” And also her current studies that link the concept of psychological attachment – long studied in terms of the dynamics of close human relationships – to people’s close connections with natural places. In a stimulating dialog, Susan described important ecological insights she gained observing bears in Alaska, and the social and media phenomena of Flaco the owl living newly wild in New York City. Of her current research, Susan recounted: 

And we started with the simplest of questions. “Think of a place, what does it mean to you?” And our first pass through the study, we were amazed at the similarity of the response. People were describing relationships… And then later, when asked, “What does it remind you of?” people said, “mother, father, mentor, best friend, sibling.” Those were the words that people used. “If this place were no longer here, how would you feel?” “Devastated.” …“what else devastates you?” I mean, we know right? The loss of someone you love.

Join us for a validating discussion of emotional attachment to nature and “emotional biodiversity” that you can apply to your own life.

Thomas looked back on his psychological research into technological disasters to help explain why the recent train derailment and chemical disaster in East Palestine, Ohio was so traumatic for that community and so unsettling for observers from afar. These kinds of chemical disasters—with their ominous dark clouds, fearful citizenry, and fish dying in local streams—are very hard to cope with due to their uncertain long-term health risks. These events also tend to divide communities due to issues of human negligence and injustice, as poor and marginalized communities are often unfairly placed in harm’s way. Panu and Thomas showed how the train disaster is a variation of the larger issue of eco-anxiety about chemicals and toxins that besets people worldwide. To understand how the East Palestine event affects our emotions and feelings, it is first necessary to honor some of our basic environmental values (self-protection, concern for others less fortunate, and duty to protect vulnerable species). Listen in to the conversation and find support and connection.

Thomas and Panu were pleased to connect with geographer and climate change communications expert Susanne “Susi” Moser, whose path finding publications such as 2007’s Creating a Climate for Change set the stage for much of the current psychology and social science of climate change. Susi shared her own climate journey as a young earth science researcher charting her own emotional responses to the reality of climate change, and how she found allies in the work of ecopsychology activists like Joanna Macy, and ongoing challenges for working scientists to cope with the emotional side of their work. Susi described her mission providing positive visions for change for engineers and planners in the scientific and technical community – climate adaptation professionals whose day jobs are to “look the apocalypse in the face every single day.” Join us for an inspiring conversation on finding new meaning and a larger frame.

“When you think about the scientific or technical professions, it is very uncommon to bring in emotion, your whole selves into the conversation, into your work, right? We're supposed to be, you know, heads on a stick. But that's just not who we are. And, in fact … all the conversation we've had in recent years about storytelling is all about that, right? It is actually about re-embodying ourselves into a larger fabric of who we are as people. What our identity is. How it changes through the experiences we have in life. And how it is held in the community.” 

Thomas and Panu spoke with Jennifer Uchendu, a researcher and climate activist from Lagos, Nigeria. Jennifer is founder of SustyVibes, a youth-focused climate organization with a mission to design and implement projects that make sustainability cool, actionable and relatable in Africa. The trio discussed Jennifer’s sense of Nigeria’s environmental situation and history and climate emotions she has observed among youth and elders in the country. Jennifer explained the SustyVibes mindset and the new Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project, where she works with scholars like Charles Ogunbunde (see Season 2, Episode 8). As Jennifer reflected: 

“It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people … in my generation, young people who look like me, have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions.”

Join us for the conversation! 

Thomas and Panu were joined by artist and poet Daniela Molnar, who creates her paintings using scientific records of glacier retreat in the Cascade range and natural paints and pigments she gathers near her home and in her wilderness journeys. The trio discussed how art making is one way to “enfranchise” climate grief that otherwise goes unrecognized, where in Daniela’s case she confronts forces of grief and wonder, in dynamic interplay. “Making paint is a kind of ecology,” Daniela observed. When making your own pigment the “world becomes full of colors,” rocks and plants gain agency and different waters from rain or sea behave in a way that is very much alive. Daniela evoked the creative tension apparent in regeneration of damaged landscapes where a “wound is simultaneously an injury and a process of healing.”

In this episode, Panu shared insights from his major new paper The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief. In a dialog with Thomas, Panu described stages like the “semi-consciousness” we experience as we come into awareness of the severity of the ecological crisis and the shocks that can follow an environmental awakening. He explained how healthy coping requires a balance of taking action, expressing emotions like grief, and creating healthy distance by taking breaks. Thomas gave examples of people he has observed going through these stages and processes. Coping with eco-anxiety and ecological grief is a journey. Join us to learn new tools. 

In the first episode of the new year, Thomas and Panu spoke with composer and multimedia artist Scott Ordway, whose recent works such as The End of Rain, The Clearing in the Forest and The Outer Edge of Youth explore themes of nature, identity and the effects of global climate change. Scott described the process of creating The End of Rain, an ambitious 2022 orchestral work that wove documentary, music, imagery and landscape investigations to tell the story of the aftermath of a catastrophic wildfire that swept through Scott’s childhood home in the redwood forests of Northern California. Scott also shared a musical selection from his recent choral opera, The Outer Edge of Youth.

Thomas and Panu take a moment to “sit around the fire” at the end of 2022 and winter time in the northern latitudes, as Panu watches the snowy weather in Helsinki, and Thomas muses about world events and his family’s yearly solstice ceremony. Listen in as the pair reflect on global dangers and our feelings about them —ranging from the brutal conflict in Ukraine and renewed threat of nuclear war to new and often unexpressed stress and unease as our seasons and weathers change around the world. And, holding the contradictions: Watching exciting World Cup matches against the backdrop of systemic injustices, and the “holiday season” with its frenetic, electronic consumerism and opportunity for simple, authentic connections with loved ones. Panu and Thomas model the healthy process of ecological conversations: sharing the deep and dark thoughts we have with safe and trusting listeners, bearing witness, and also naturally finding the bright parts of life, gratitude and “permission to feel joy.” Remember, you are not alone. Please find your own healthy rituals. Look forward to more unique episodes of our podcast in the new year and please support us at Patreon and at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

Panu and Thomas were joined by Charles Ogunbode, a psychology researcher at the University of Nottingham in the UK, in a dialogue about anxiety and other eco-emotions around the world. Charles shared insights from his widely reported paper “Climate anxiety, wellbeing and pro-environmental action: Correlates of negative emotional responses to climate change in 32 countries.” His study found that while climate anxiety is hurting people’s mental health around the world, from Brazil to Uganda, Portugal to the Philippines, people’s ability to speak out and take action is curtailed by lack of free speech and ability to demonstrate in many countries. Charles described his early interest in wildlife protection in Nigeria and his formative discoveries of research on conservation psychology and unconscious aspects of emotions like the melancholy that we can feel in relation to widespread destruction of the natural world. He described how his current projects create nuanced portraits of how Africans perceive the harms posed by climate change that move beyond simplistic stereotypes. Thomas, Panu and Charles reflected on unique environmental emotions and coping responses of citizens of East and West Africa that, given their shared colonial histories, feature both resignation about climate threats and also a deep resilience.

In this episode, Thomas and Panu confront an issue that has become commonplace as the impacts of climate change are more widely felt: How can we enjoy our time in natural settings and seek the restoration we crave when our awareness of environmental destruction and our feelings of ecological grief are so strong? Panu shared research about how climate grief is acutely impacting many young people and their emotional connection to places. Thomas reminded us that ecological grief has been a perennial challenge among ecologically aware people, even a strange privilege—citing Aldo Leopold’s famous dictum “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds”—and looked back to his own youthful confrontations with old growth clearcuts with his “postmodern expeditions” practice. As we know from our podcast, we are not doomed to live alone with our feelings about the world. We can join with others that share our values and sense of urgency. And, as our recent discussion with Rosemary Randall taught us, grief is not solely a barrier but also a gateway, an invitation to new ways of being that mourn our losses and reinvest our energy back into life. So too with our potential for re-securing our attachments to places and restoring (re-storying) wounded places. Listen for more details and share in this important discussion. 

Thomas and Panu were joined by long-time writing teacher and former Oregon Poet Laureate Kim Stafford for an uplifting dialogue about creativity and finding daily inspiration in our relationship with nature. Kim shared poems, quotes and lessons drawn from his teaching and daily writing practice. Echoing British landscape writer Robert McFarlane, Kim observed: “A landscape that has not been evocatively described becomes easy to destroy.” As the days grow shorter in the Northern Hemisphere, join us for an energizing conversation that ranged across cultures from the epic poetry of Finland to Native American wisdom. 

Thomas and Panu were honored to host Rosemary Randall, pioneering British psychotherapist whose 2005 paper “A New Climate for Psychotherapy” and Carbon Conversations group anticipated the current Climate Conscious Therapy movement. Thomas and Ro reflected on the significance of Ro’s adaptation of psychological grief models to help support and empower members of the public who were experiencing distress as they confronted their own carbon footprints. Panu focused on Ro’s current sense of the emotional impacts of the climate crisis on young people and her new program on Living with the Climate Crisis with the UK Climate Psychology Alliance. As Ro has noted, “It’s a cliché that the antidote to climate despair is action. Far less attention is paid to the process of moving from a state of acute distress, anxiety and grief into a form of action that feels commensurate, practically possible and sustainable over time. This is the process which Living with the Climate Crisis groups aim to address.” Join us for a consoling and thought provoking conversation.

Thomas and Panu discussed ecological guilt, a ubiquitous feeling many of us experience, but rarely explore deeply. Panu explained various levels of ecological guilt from small daily uneasiness about our activities and their ecological impacts to more troubling experiences of public shame and even species guilt. Thomas had insights about the levels or “volume knob” of this and other eco- and climate feelings and the societal forces at play in heightening our guilt feelings or minimizing them, and possible benefits of “ditching guilt” when it stifles our happiness and ability to take action to solve environmental problems. Panu and Thomas also recognized the paradox of having the privilege to feel guilty about issues like one’s carbon footprint and how an assumption of ecological guilt obscures other common emotional experiences about climate and environmental problems that people have around the world. What should we do about eco-guilt? Are we all climate hypocrites? Is taking action really an “antidote to despair”? Listen in on this surprisingly intriguing talk and then draw your own conclusions. 

As a follow up to their conversation with young climate and emotions researcher Isabel Coppola, Thomas and Panu spoke with Environmental Studies Professor Sarah Jaquette Ray, well-known for her writings on climate anxiety and social justice perspectives within the climate and environmental movements. Panu and Sarah collaborated on the Existential Toolkit for Climate Justice Educators Project. Sarah reflected on her own climate emotions journey and what she sees as her sacred role as a teacher and university professor, and the intensity of people reaching out to her about climate change. She noted her experience 7-10 years ago of being enlightened about issues of complicity and despair about climate change among students, and her effort to “go back to the drawing board and reinvent myself as a professor to meet the moment that students were asking for.” This included questioning the impulse among students that “burnout is actually the badge of how much I care” and breaking down traditional barriers in the academy between academic content and emotional support and self care provided by the counseling center. Panu was reminded of a concept he has been using in Finnish, “arkipäivän tilastoimaton hyvyys”, translated as “unaccounted everyday goodness” and referencing California writer Mike Davis, the speakers played with the concepts of “unmobilized love” and “immobilized love.” Sarah looked ahead to the Conference she is helping to organize in April 2023 at University California Riverside Environment, Justice, and the Politics of Emotion: A Virtual and In-Person Symposium along with our previous podcast guest Jade Sasser and other climate and emotions experts. Thomas noted the recent death of scholar Phillip Cushman whose works like the  paper “Why the Self is Empty” and book Constructing the Self, Constructing America are influential in critical psychology and ecopsychology. Join us for an enlightening dialog among leading climate thinkers.

In this episode, Thomas and Panu spoke with their 23-year-old colleague Isabel Coppola, a recent graduate of the University of Vermont and a Fulbright Scholar who has studied with Panu in Finland. Isabel has been an intern on the Climate Change and Happiness podcast over the last year and has been intimately involved in the creation of episodes and transcripts, and in answering listeners’ email messages. Isabel shared lessons from her thesis “Ecoanxiety in the Climate Generation: Is Action an Antidote?” She discussed her favorite CCH podcast episodes and her future plans. Isabel also reflected on her own lived experience of coping with her “unhinged anxiety” about climate change in her teenage years, and recognition of her relative privilege growing up in a picturesque forested town in New England in the US. Panu added insights about climate emotions and Thomas about environmental identity. Join us for a discussion of a young scholar’s early journey. 

In Season 2, Episode 1, Panu and Thomas reflect on the core question of the Climate Change and Happiness podcast (what does it mean to be “happy” in an era of far reaching and often catastrophic environmental changes) – and particularly how it feels “right now” in Summer 2022 as so many places cope with heat, fires and drought. While young people have known of climate change their entire life, adults and elders can look back to when they first heard about the concept and to the innocence or “blessed unknowing” (using Panu’s evocative term) of that time. Practicing “active hope” Panu and Thomas discussed positive events including the passage of long overdue climate legislation in the US and Thomas’s inspiring dialog with the young creators of the ClimaTwins podcast. To capture his emotional tone this summer, Thomas shared the concept of “In Medias Res” a story-telling device that plunges the audience right into the middle of the action without a preamble (from Latin, literally, into the midst of things). This can also become a conscious coping technique: Being mindful of our state of being thrown into the midst of the world, and pulling back like a film director to remind ourselves of our history and where we want our personal story to go. Panu identified with this, and listeners may find this helpful as well. As always, there are links to some of the topics and ideas that Panu and Thomas discussed.

Episode 17 features some intimate sharing between Panu and Thomas about their travels and adventures as young men and how this influenced their environmental identities. They looked back at their efforts as “apprentices” and “artisans” in their work on eco- and climate emotions, referencing the Soulcentric Developmental Model of US Depth Psychologist Bill Plotkin. Thomas recognized some key developmental journeys in his life: “going off to the big city,” finding his ancestral and natural place roots in Ireland, traveling “west” in the US to places like Alaska and Grand Canyon. Panu similarly reminisced about his formative youthful hiking experiences in Finland and Iceland. They discussed the process of wilderness therapy and rites of passage, and recognized the “pride of living outside of the culture” and being more attuned to wildness in people who do that work the world-over (as captured in journey narratives like “Into the Wild”).

In Episode 16, Thomas and Panu had an enlightening conversation with Elin Kelsey, environmental educator and author of Hope Matters. Panu and Elin spoke of their collaborations in Finland and the importance of taking time for reflection in the “culture of urgency” we have about climate change. Elin shared the concept of “solutions journalism” and noted that only 2-3% of news we hear about climate change discusses currently available solutions. The insight is that a scarcity of hope is also a perceptual issue—given the problem-oriented biases of academia, journalism and scientific reports, we do not get enough positive information to feed a healthy sense of hope about progress addressing the climate emergency. Panu, Elin and Thomas considered early examples of hope practices, the current solutions-focused influencing of Tik-Tok science educator Alaina Wood (aka The Garbage Queen), detours like “bright-siding” and toxic forms of hope and negativity, and the healthy place for moments of hopelessness in our flow of emotions as they can signal when an old path is done and new path needs to begin. Join us and update your ideas about hope!