Season 2, Episode 11: A New Perspective on Eco-anxiety and Grief

Written By Climate Change And Happiness
 

image credit | The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief - graphics by Anne Palm

Season 2, Episode 11: A New Perspective on Eco-anxiety and Grief

In this episode, Panu shared insights from his major new paper The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief. In a dialog with Thomas, Panu described stages like the “semi-consciousness” we experience as we come into awareness of the severity of the ecological crisis and the shocks that can follow an environmental awakening. He explained how healthy coping requires a balance of taking action, expressing emotions like grief, and creating healthy distance by taking breaks. Thomas gave examples of people he has observed going through these stages and processes. Coping with eco-anxiety and ecological grief is a journey. Join us to learn new tools. 

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Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello. I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. In particular, their emotions. Their emotional responses. And you can find us a climatechangeandhappiness.com. And you could support us at our Patreon. 

And today, I'm talking with Panu. And Panu, I know, one of our interests for us personally and for the listeners is the journey that we're all on in terms of our understanding of climate change. And particularly our emotional coping. And how we make sense. And how we deal with some of these issues and threats and stuff like that. And I know you've been working on a really big kind of what I would say a wisdom piece. A paper that you're pulling together a lot of the research and ideas for other scholars. And, you know, for other academics and researchers, but you're also, you know, have this model. Pulling together things that I think is really, practically useful for people. So we're talking about that today. And we're going to jump into that. Wherever you want to start with that. Either the background or currently what's on top of your mind. And we'll just chat about this today.

Pihkala: Thank you Thomas. In 2019 in Finland, I published a second book of mine about eco emotions and eco-anxiety [Mieli maassa? Ympäristötunteet]. So that one was a sort of handbook about various feelings and emotions that we may experience in relation to environmental issues and [the] more than human world. And in that book, I had a quite rudimentary model of the process of encountering the ecological state of the world. So that could be called the process of eco distress or process of eco-anxiety. And that quite simple graphic finger was very helpful for many people. I got good feedback from that. So that caused me to think about whether that could be elaborated more. Because that wasn't a product of a long thinking process, rather something I decided at the end of writing the book. 

So then, especially from the beginning of 2021, I started thinking about this more seriously. And also, I had read many writings about the topic which were using a very famous stages model. Namely, the five stages of grief, by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, going back to the turn of the 1960s and 70s. And that's still by far the most famous model or frame of grief around the world. So often, people from various fields know about that. And I guess, Thomas, that was probably part of your training as a psychologist also. So do you remember when you first came across Kübler Ross's model? 

Doherty: No, I don't remember because I think it's one of those things that's in society. And in pop culture. And so we absorb it. And then we take it as a given, like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Or one of these kinds of things. But they're not necessarily even literally true. Or they might have been, you know, surpassed by other ideas in academia. But these kind of stand the test of time. People need a roadmap. They need some sort of model. So, you were inspired by this, but I think you're going beyond this. Or you're taking this another step forward.  

Pihkala: Yeah, you're exactly right. So the Kübler-Ross model. Which is sometimes called DABDA, after the initials of the so-called stages. There's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You know, those are things that may happen when people encounter grief and distress. But then, as Thomas well knows, scholars of grief and bereavement have criticized the model since the beginning, for a couple of reasons. One is that not all people go through all of these things. 

And the second one is that in practice, many people get the idea that this is linear. That, you know, I should move from denial to anger and bargaining and depression and acceptance. And the third point is that sometimes in contemporary societies, people think that one can reach acceptance. And then that's it, the grief is passed. And, of course, there can be great advancements in processes. But it's not so simple. As I think many people realize, there's going to be changes in moods, and when something comes up in life, you are reminded of the person or thing that you have lost. And then it's very normal to have these mood changes. 

And now, in the last few years, people have been applying Kübler-Ross Stages of grief also, especially for climate grief. And I think there's a great need to apply the richness of scholarship from grief theory into this topic without giving the linear impression. Even though there is some strength in many of the wordings in the Kübler-Ross frame. So that's part of the motivation for me to work on this. 

So I wanted to create a model, which would be simple enough so that it can be understood pretty easily, and could be used in education, for example. And perhaps even as a tool for self reflection. But also that it will be more nuanced. And that it would integrate the possibility and  inevitability of mood changes. And what might be called fluctuation or oscillation. 

And that wasn't an easy task. It was much more difficult than I thought it would be during the COVID-19. It certainly took me time to get that all figured out. So basically, the model is as follows. There is a chronological element, not stages, but phases. And in the middle, there is a three-dimension part. What I'm calling Coping and Changing. And I'll explain that more in a bit. 

First, there is what I'm calling Unknowing. And this is something we have discussed in the podcast recently. Partly through the framework of blessed unknowing about the ecological crisis. Then a complex period of Semiconsciousness. And some of these terms come from [an article by] [Sarah Anne] Edwards and [Linda] Buzzell, the so-called “Waking Up Syndrome”. A kind of classic text in ecopsychology. And something I think, Thomas, you have encountered quite early on. So, after this complex phase of Semiconsciousness, where people may sort of know and not know, at the same time – and desire not to know more, because it would be so troublesome to really take in all the information. And the need for changes in one's life. 

But there usually comes some kind of realization and Awakening. Which then may lead people to different directions. Some people start engaging with the ecological crisis much more. Or they just can't avoid it anymore. There may be distress of various kinds. And some people still try to get away from the topic. Which I think is very human, but of course, it often leads to severe problems, both in the psychological lives of people. There's cognitive dissonance and other things. And of course, the ethical responsibility for our common planet is difficult to do if you try to move away from the topic altogether. So there may be various kinds of shock or stress and trauma here. 

And then comes the sort of heart of the model. This Coping and Changing. And as I heard you, Thomas, say many times, “all models are inadequate, but some may be useful”, to paraphrase. And this is very true for this model also. So it can't capture the fullness of what's going on. But it tries to capture enough so it might be useful. And in Coping and Changing, after long days of work, I conceptualized three dimensions which are 1) Action and 2) Grieving, which includes other emotional engagement. And thirdly, 3) Distancing, which includes both healthy self-care and problematic avoidance. The idea is that seemingly, people need elements from all these three dimensions to adjust and transform in response to the state of the world. 

So action is needed so that we can take better care of the planet and ourselves. And it also may help psychologically. But as we've often talked in this podcast, if you just do action, you get in danger of activist burnout and other stuff. And [in] grieving and emotional engagement, of course, people grieve in character, as you say, Thomas, and have different takes on this. But encountering the state of the world includes the need to encounter losses and changes. So that's the grieving part. And also there, if you just go very far in that without action, and without relief, then you usually end up in trouble. 

And the third part, which is here called Distancing, is the part where you take some distance to these matters. And the grief theorists very emphatically say that we need that. And it's very normal for people to also take breaks from the grieving process. And there are other things in life which demand our attention. So that's healthy. But then again, if you only do distancing, you end up in disavowal or denial. And once again, you end up in trouble. So this is sort of one of the main ideas. That we need elements from all these three. But if we just do one of them too much, then we end in trouble. How's that for you, Thomas? What thoughts come to your mind  when hearing all this? 

Doherty: Yeah, no, this is really great Panu. I'm following along and I have the luxury of looking at your figure that shows this graphic that shows your process. And we'll put that in our show notes. And, you know, if you go to our website, each episode has a picture. Some sort of picture. And the picture for this episode will be this graphic. So it'd be like one of the slides that Panu shows. It'll make this come alive to people. But I think just for the listener. And what I'm taking away, too. I mean, there's a pathway here. There's some steps. 

I think the first part of this is the, you know, unknowing, or semi knowing or awakening or shock. You know that waking up syndrome. Which I think most listeners, I doubt people would be listening to this podcast if they didn't have that experience. So that captures where we're at. And I love the blessed unknowing stage that you talked about. The innocence that we had before we really took this on. 

But then I see a bigger circle that has three things inside of it. There's this creative tension between moving toward action, dealing with the emotions, and then also pulling back a little bit and being able to kind of like, have some emotional distance. Or being able to wait and stop. Be mindful. So the distance, I think, is the most interesting in the sense that everybody knows about emotions and actions. I think we're often toggling back and forth between anxiety and grief and fear. And then what are we going to do about this? But that is distancing. That's like this little special lever, that I can turn things up or down. So I think it'd be nice to chat a little more about that. Because do you think that's really a key for self care?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for that question, and all the comments. And it was difficult to choose a name for this dimension which is now called distancing. At one point I called it “Avoidance”. I was thinking about “Disavowal” also. So the trick is that it includes both the healthy forms, and the sort of unhealthy forms if you do it overly much. So this is one of the reasons that I was searching for a word which captures both the problematic denial part and the healthy self care part. And of course, one can't find a perfect term which would capture all of that variety. But from the coping theory and grief theory, I found people who are using both distancing and avoidance also, in that positive shade, or positive tone. Pointing out that it's not normal also to do what some people call functional denial or healthy denial. I didn't want to put denial there. 

But I think you are very right, Thomas that distancing is sort of the newest term which is named here. And partly that comes from a very practical need, because I've met many young environmental activists who have great trouble in allowing themselves to distance themselves. And that's very understandable because the problems are so pressing. It's so difficult to do structural change. And so sometimes they end up at the danger of burnout. Because [of] not encountering emotions enough and not doing enough distancing and healthy self care.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think for all the listeners just thinking about this. I mean what I hear often is people will make some sort of joke about being an ostrich. And having their head in the sand. Which is a classic image. I don't actually know that ostriches really do that. We should explore that. But I think ostriches are wiser than that. But anyway, that's a common thing that I hear from a lot of people. People who are quite engaged and quite intelligent and quite aware. But they're like, well, my heads in the sand, you know. But what you're saying is, it's okay to have our head in the sand sometimes.

Pihkala: Yeah, it's all about balance, you know. Of course, action and emotional engagement are hugely important. But I don't think that as humans, in this very “long emergency”, as some authors call it. I don't think that we can make it through if we don't get the benefits of healthy distancing, also. And in a way, this is linked very much to the conversations we were having with Ro Randall some time ago [on] the podcast. And she's been developing together with colleagues living with the climate crisis model. Which also reflects this change of needing to put more emphasis on how we can have the energy and do some rejuvenation and recreation in order to stay functional.

Doherty: So if someone's too far in the head in the sand. And they're comfortable there. And they want to move out into the emotional section, what do you think are some good ways to begin? Do you talk about that at all in the article?

Pihkala: I wish I could talk about it even more, but it's quite a long paper and definitely needs some further work. But I've been very interested in this concept of so-called ecological emotional skills. So emotional skills about ecological emotions. And I think we need many kinds of those. But of course, some methods are pretty universal. You know, listening to what you feel and also in your body. Trying to find names. This goes back to some of the content of our very early episodes of the podcast. 

And then trying to develop an emotion-positive attitude, for example. And what I've seen in literature and some people is that if you have your head in the sand for a long time, there's a great danger of feeling actually ashamed underneath the armor you have. So I think skills related to encountering the threat of ecological guilt and shame are actually very much needed at that point. But of course, it's difficult to do alone. Or just start doing it, you know. So the help of safe support groups and discussion partners, I think might be very crucial there. 

And I'm also thinking of this concept of yours, Thomas, climate hostages. You know, realizing that all of us, we are both victims and perpetrators in a way. But because we are individuals, I think we really need to understand that we shouldn't take all the blame of the world on our shoulders. So those kinds of things that help you to be more okay with yourself. I think that's one important dynamic in moving towards emotional engagement. Starting with grief and sadness may be difficult, if there is this guilt and shame dimension in the way. But what do you think, Thomas and also reflecting on many people you meet?

Doherty: Yeah, I mean I'm really enjoying our conversation because this is just another lens to think about these really complicated ideas. It seems to me that if we take the safety of being an ostrich as a starting point then we kind of peek out of the sand a little bit. And take in a little bit about what's going on. So some of it is taking small sips of this emotional stuff. You know, just a little bit here and there. 

But what I heard that I personally think is really key is that it's easier to do this with other people. If we're stuck and lonely and isolated, it's really hard. But when we're with the people that understand what we're going through, then of course, we just feel a little more able to express ourselves. So that's the universality of being in a group. So that's, I think, a super important takeaway. And then the other piece, and you might say more about this, but some of these emotions are … it's not that they're necessarily harder than others, but they get in the way of other emotions. So I think that shame and guilt. Those shame and guilt. They stop us from expressing or maybe they keep us isolated. So I think we can get over some of those. They're kind of like clogs in the emotional river. If we can work on those. Does that ring true to you that these are more problematic emotions? Maybe?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. I definitely think so. And as we discussed in our podcast episode about ecological guilt, it can also have many forms. And sometimes people use that word in very different connotations. So if we think about it broadly, of course, as a sense of responsibility and having an ethical compass, being able to feel guilt is a very much needed part of human life. But then, if you feel it very strongly, and in a complicated way, then definitely so as you describe. 

And, of course, the troubles in contemporary society about grief in general. And ecological grief in particular, one big obstacle here. Because contemporary industrial societies aren't very good at teaching, for example, children and young people skills in grief. And if that's, you know, basically totally foreign to people, the idea that it would be good to embrace grief and sadness, because those are emotions that help us. They are not the problems or the enemies, but there are some losses, and then grief and sadness come to help us. But this knowledge and wisdom is much missing from contemporary societies. And that complicates things a lot. 

And that's, I think, one of the reasons why the Good Grief Network, which is about ecological grief, is so powerful. It combines social support and engagement with feelings of grief and sadness. And even these death cafes or climate emotion cafes. Which may go into pretty deep and dark territory. But they also enable social support and go towards the shared feelings of sadness. What do you think about this sadness and grief dimension, Thomas? I know you have a long history of dealing with that?

Doherty: Oh, yeah. Well, what I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the listeners who are saying, well, it's capitalism. You know, we're supposed to be always in the US, rah, rah, rah, cheer, cheer, cheer, everything's great. And don't be a downer. Don't be a Debbie Downer, you know. And so, this grieving and shadow side stuff is just as radical. You know, it goes back to all those things we talked about in relation to Joanna Macy. And a lot of the work is radical to say, wait, I'm actually suffering here, in my plenty in my first world. So it is radical to bring that out and do that together. 

So yeah. And then, you know, I think the goal that I'm hearing from you is that your distance becomes a thing that you move around. Like I become an ostrich that keeps his head close to the sand, but not in the sand so that I have one eye on. I'm peeking, and I'm seeing and then eventually, I lift my head up a little higher, and then I can actually walk around with my head up. But I know that I can do my coping skills emotionally in my body. So that I don't have to, like bury my head all the way. Like I learn to kind of take care of myself. The distance becomes really dynamic. Like in the sense of I'm always adjusting. And it's like a balancing act kind of thing. Is that, like a dance or a balancing act, or some sort of embodied? I'm not sure what image you would use.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that. Thomas. I think that's very profound. And I'm arguing that flexibility and awareness are some key issues in moving forward in coping and changing. 

Doherty: Flexibility.

Pihkala: Yeah, so actually the model ends with another circle. There's an arrow called Adjusting and Transforming. The work of Blanche Verlie from Australia has been one influence here. And theories of so-called Post-Traumatic Growth. Which deal with different kinds of troubles and stressors. Not just with huge traumas, but also with them. So the idea is that of these three dimensions [Action, Grieving, Distancing], the subtitles become the main titles. So instead of Grieving, which includes other emotional engagements, when you're able, through many factors, to adjust and transform, then “other emotional engagement” is the main title and grieving, the subtitle. And also self-care becomes the overriding form. And then you are able to use distancing when you need it. So you have this skill of putting your head in the sand when things become too much, but you are also able to move towards things. And I'm fascinated by the image of ostrich here because they look very slow. But, you know, when they start running, they are very, very fast. So,  that's actually a funny image of an ostrich which has the skills of also running fast, putting the head in the sand if necessary. I don't know if ostriches are able to cry, but  humans definitely need that skill too.

Doherty: Yeah, our apologies to ostriches and to folks that are listening that are natural historians and do understand. This speaks to our own kind of anthropocentric world where we use these animals as symbols. But obviously, all animals like ostriches are highly evolved for their landscape. And they've got that long neck to find their food in the trees. And they can run fast from predators. And all this sort of stuff. And so yeah, we do want to become, I guess, you know, we're all trying to become evolved. You know, highly evolved for this landscape. And so, something we might have an episode about the ostrich effect. 

Because I think we, I'm just kind of brainstorming now. And I'll keep it short, because I know this is focused on your model. But we're starting to think as well, how do we evolve? Like, I need to have long legs to run away from threats. I need to be able to hide if I need to. And I also need to have a long neck, so I can see really far and see these big issues. And so I don't know what the climate creature would look like. That would be highly evolved. You know what I mean, though? It's interesting. What that would be. But we've got a few minutes. And you know, listeners are saying, okay, what's in it for me here? How do I understand? So they could be in any place. Do you have an example of a real person or some sort of way that this works out? So someone might be able to try it on for size. Like anybody that you know, that has gone through this.

Pihkala: Yeah. In the article, I'm using a couple of quotes from Sally Gillespie, an Australian psychotherapist, who has written a very fine book on Climate Crisis and Consciousness (2020). And she is definitely one who has gone through many things on her climate emotion journey. And she's open about it. And mentioning that, for example, [that] apocalyptic dreams don't haunt her as they used to, at some points. There's still mood changes, but generally, there is more flexibility. There is experience of meaning in life. So I think the quotes from Gillespie are important examples coming from someone who has gone pretty far on the journey that I'm trying to conceptualize. At least in a helpful way, even though one cannot capture all the varied dynamics here. 

Joanna Macy, who we named, I think is another example of a kind of elder who has really gotten through this. And in many books and essays, there's examples of people in various positions. And it's different for different people in different contexts. Which may sound like a cliche or understatement, but I think it's very important to emphasize that there's a lot of factors affecting this. So this is not an Olympic race. And it's not just up to the individual, but people are in very different positions concerning the factors which affect them.

Doherty: So I think it's helpful. Even back to the New York Times story that came out earlier this year. Which talked about me working with different people, I see. Different people are recognized in your model. I mean, I see some people that are so over on action, that they haven't really ever spent a lot of time on the emotion side at all. I see some people, unfortunately, that are swallowed up by their grieving. And they would love to put their head in the sand, but they can't. They can't do it. I think for some listeners it's just hard. It's hard. And then I think some people are so distant that they have a hard time imagining either action or emotion. So I think that's the challenging part. 

But I think we all have our unique recipe. Like where our strengths lie. So what you're talking about is trying to do like, 1/3 1/3 1/3. Or something like that. Where we take care of ourselves for 1/3 and we take action for 1/3 and we have emotions for 1/3. That's highly simplistic. But that would be interesting to practice on a given day.

Pihkala: Exactly Thomas. And thanks for sharing those observations of people who you meet. And we'd love to hear from you, dear listener. So what does it evoke in you? So you can reach us through our website, www.climatechangeandhappiness.com. And if you have close, trusted people who you can talk about with these things. 

So that's one possibility to use the model's basic ideas. To reflect on some of that. And I know that with the people I've shared the model with before getting it into the publication process, it has generated very interesting conversations. Where often people look back and think about that hey, when I was in the upper levels of elementary school, I had this awakening, but it was so difficult that I tried to go back to semi consciousness. But that worked for a couple of years, but not more. So it may also evoke this, looking back. And I know, Thomas, that that's one method that you use in your work. You know, doing this sort of timelines and thinking about our personal histories. Both in relation to so-called ecological identity and the happenings in our lives. So hopefully, the model might be using that kind of work too.

Doherty: Yeah, there's no going backward on the process. Once we have that awakening, we have to move forward. And so you're giving us some tools for that. So well, folks, I hope this is helpful. You know, even though you might be alone today, in some ways, you're not alone with us. Because that's what this podcast is meant to be. A place where we all can share this together. Again, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon. And we'll keep bringing these in-depth discussions to you. And you all good luck on keeping your head slightly out of the sand. But getting together with other people that you can do action together with. Take care of yourselves.

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

 
Climate Change And Happiness https://climatechangeandhappiness.com
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Season 2, Episode 12: Art Gives Ecological Grief a Body, with Daniela Molnar
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Season 2, Episode 10: Composing During the Climate Crisis with Scott Ordway