Season 2, Episode 13: SustyVibes with Jennifer Uchendu
image credit | The Susty Vibes team on the streets of Lagos during World Cleanup Day
Season 2, Episode 13: SustyVibes with Jennifer Uchendu
Thomas and Panu spoke with Jennifer Uchendu, a researcher and climate activist from Lagos, Nigeria. Jennifer is founder of SustyVibes, a youth-focused climate organization with a mission to design and implement projects that make sustainability cool, actionable and relatable in Africa. The trio discussed Jennifer’s sense of Nigeria’s environmental situation and history and climate emotions she has observed among youth and elders in the country. Jennifer explained the SustyVibes mindset and the new Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project, where she works with scholars like Charles Ogunbunde (see Season 2, Episode 8). As Jennifer reflected:
“It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people … in my generation, young people who look like me, have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions.”
Join us for the conversation!
Links
Diffey, Wright, & Uchendu at al 2022: "Not about us without us" - the feelings and hopes of climate-concerned young people around the world
Jennifer Uchendu on founding The Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project
Some background on Nigeria and the resource challenges faced by developing nations in Africa
Transcript
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
[music: “CC&H theme music”]
Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking about the personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses and their feelings about climate change. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon so we can bring this content to you. And today, we are very excited to have a special guest.
Jennifer Uchendu: Hi, everyone. My name is Jennifer Uchendu. I'm calling in from Nigeria. And I'm the founder of SustyVibes. Looking forward to our discussion today.
Doherty: Yes. And so we're really glad to have Jennifer coming in from Lagos. And we've been waiting for this conversation for a while. And, as you know, we try to make this as best we can a world conversation. And with different people, and different ages. So I'm really looking forward to [this] chat. Panu, do you want to get us started?
Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Jennifer, also, from my part. I'm really glad to have this opportunity to discuss. We've met online a couple of times, in things related to climate emotions. And I've been fascinated by the work you've been doing in Nigeria. Both research and leading and working with NGOs. And so there's plenty to talk about here. And we're really interested about Nigerian perspectives, also. But would you like to start by saying a bit about where you are and where you come from, so to speak. So, what's up for you, Jennifer?
Uchendu: Absolutely. Thanks, Panu. I'm calling in from Lagos, Nigeria, where I live and work. SustyVibes, my organization, you know, we're based in Nigeria. [We] started here [and] have now started expanding to parts of West Africa. But really our work is for, you know, young people in Nigeria.
I always like to tell the story, as you know, seven years ago, I was, you know, this really young person. I'm still young now. But I was super young. Really passionate about, you know, the environment and looking for a platform where I can be a young person that meaningfully participates and contributes to environmental protection. And at the time, there were typical, you know, NGOs and CSOs in Nigeria that were run by older people. And there wasn't a lot of space for that kind of youth led and youth focused work. And then I started writing a blog about sustainability and the environment. And that kind of evolved into the work that I do now. Which is like bringing young people together and driving work when it comes to, you know, environmental protection.
And I found myself in this work for climate and mental health as far back as 2019. Where we saw that even though young people were coming together to do work on environmental protection, there were still lots of emotions coming in and interplaying in our everyday lives that we needed to kind of interrogate [and] explore a bit more. And, you know, that's where we got to find out about eco-anxiety. You know, grief and all of those emotions that make us whole and human, I would say. And it's been really interesting, you know, navigating these emotions. Finding ways to safeguard them. Especially for us as Africans, recognizing that, you know, our own emotions and triggers as it relates to the climate crisis is quite peculiar. Especially when you look at it from the lens of climate justice, you know, and whatnot.
So there's been so much to explore. It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people, you know, in my generation, young people who look like me have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions. So yeah, that really is me in a nutshell.
Doherty: Nigeria is—I'm looking at the map of Nigeria, Jennifer. I'd like to say just at the beginning a bit about you—what is the experience of people there and young people? It's funny, my daughter is 15. And she's studying human geography. And she has a test today where—I was helping her study for her test. And one of her vocabulary words is “superimposed boundaries” on countries. Where you make a boundary of a country that lays on top of all the existing cultures and nations within the culture.
And I know Nigeria is a very diverse place. How do you as young people in Nigeria, see yourselves in relation to the history in Nigeria with the oil? And with the politics? And I know, even into the 90s, there was violence against environmentalists? I mean, I'm really wondering, do you feel safe [in] your work? You know? Is it really revolutionary what you're doing? I'm just curious, what it feels like here in the 21st century.
Uchendu: Yeah, absolutely. Such a great question to have asked. There's so much to unpack, you know, to be a young person passionate about issues around the environment in Nigeria. On one hand, you know that our livelihoods, you know, lifestyle is very much linked to our environment, you know, for us in Nigeria. You can't take that away from, you know, our reality. You know, just a couple of days ago, we woke up, and we just found out that we had no water. You're just trying to figure out what exactly it is, you know. It's like, it's the reality where every day there's some linkage with the environment. With natural resources and whatnot. But at the same time, where you live in Nigeria. Whether it's the urban or rural area. Whether it's the southwest, the north. Kind of, you know, dictates your relationship with whether it's power or, you know, the issues at hand. So a lot of people in the southwest who live in the urban area oftentimes are kind of more shielded than people who live in rural areas. And interestingly, you know, I've also been very curious about how people who live in urban areas feel about the climate crisis. Especially as we have, you know, kind of like a better lifestyle, as it were.
So, I've actually just started a new research project, working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode. You might know him, where we're investigating climate emotions in West African cities. So it's kind of, you know, that curiosity to find out, okay, what really is at play. Especially for young people who live, you know, in cities, and having said that, we're also very cognizant of our history. Yeah, when I got into this work ten, eight years ago, and got to learn about, you know, about "Ken" Saro-Wiwa, got to learn about, you know, the Niger Delta. I was just kind of enveloped with so much anger, and so much kind of grief to see that we lost people who have such passion, who really cared about their people, just, you know, in the face of corrupt and oppressive leadership. And while that's scary, we live in an age where that is not as expected as it should be. Because we're now in a democracy and whatnot, social media. You know, there's so many things that help us kind of achieve our activism. But definitely, when you remember that I think what that does to us, it empowers you to want to do more. You know, to want to be more radical, more revolutionary to kind of push the limits and to demand for what's right.
And, you know, I see that even in kind of the ideologies and things that I believe in, and what we've kind of cultivated at SustyVibes in terms of how do we, for example, understand what an energy transition means for us. You know, it's an energy transition. We want to ask: are there principles around justice and equity? Are they being, you know, put into some of these big words that we hear. Because it's really about our futures really about, you know, how we get to live in 10, 15 years time. So that's how we think about, you know, this conversation. Really thinking about our place. And, you know, how we can continue to, you know, demand for what's right in ways that feel authentic to us.
Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot, Jennifer, for sharing that. And with Charles Ogunbode, we had the pleasure of discussing a couple of episodes back and heard a little bit about this very interesting research project about climate emotions in West and East Africa. And glad to hear that you're, Jennifer, part of that. And what I hear from you is that these things really come close to you in Nigeria, and for Nigerian young people. And the timescale in which very major potential threats are seen, that's much shorter than in some of the places in Northern Europe, where I'm living, for example. And then also the very understandable, righteous anger and sense of injustice related to these tragic happenings. And unjust uses of power, for example, in Nigerian history.
And you have also written yourself that you have often encountered feelings of anger and powerlessness among young people in relation to these global complex crises as the climate crisis is. So, could you share a bit about the spectrum of climate emotions you encounter in the people you work with and meet. So, it seems that this anger, helplessness, that's one part of the spectrum, but what all is there? Could you say a bit about [that]?
Uchendu: Absolutely. And yeah, because when you hear, you know, the work that we do. The name of our organization is SustyVibes, you know, we kind of designed our mission around youth energy, youth passion. And around having fun. Around kind of building our agency from what makes us young people. And so our projects have really been designed around, rather than having, you know, technical workshops, let's host a party instead. When we think about advocacy, can we have an exhibition or a movie screening? So there's really been the idea of relaxation and fun incorporated in our idea of, you know, sustainability advocacy.
But I mentioned in 2019, we saw kind of like a shift. That even though we're doing all of these really exciting things, we still felt, you know, a sense of overwhelm. I personally felt, you know, that we're just up against so much when it comes to the climate crisis. Especially when you see, you know, we felt like, you know, a tiny 0.00001, you know, fraction of the change that was needed to turn things around. And that feeling, that kind of narrative oftentimes brought us down. You know, it made us feel kind of very weak and very small. So, you know, and that side by side with feelings of anger. Anger because we're like, why do we have to work so hard? Why do we have to, you know, give up a lot of things, you know, to be these people we are. Climate activists per se. And, you know, the world just kind of goes on. Some people would never have to deal with it. So you would see that kind of, you know, drag and weight. Weight of, you know, building of hope, as it's where we're feeling as young people at SustyVibes. And I thought it was really interesting, because it wasn't until I got to the UK that I was able to, you know, put the two emotions together to see that young people in the UK were feeling, you know, things like shame and guilt. And I was like, what am I ashamed of? You know, I'm angry. You know, it's a different thing on this site.
I thought it was really interesting to see how even just context power and privilege and positionality just changes the way, you know, the emotions you get to encounter when it comes to the climate crisis. So in that spectrum, there are days, you know, we talk about days where we feel super hopeful. Where we feel excited, you know, about the work that we do when we go out to the streets. When we go tree planting, and communities, you know, adopt the trees. And, you know, commit to looking after them, because it's important for them, you know. We're really excited about the work that we do. And every SustyViber, you know, kind of has that mindset put in them. That we do really good work for the environment. But there are days where, you know, it's all gloomy, and you hear the news, you know, you see something happening and you're just sad all over again. You're like where do we kind of go on from here?
So it's definitely a spectrum. Where we kind of oscillate from, you know, really hopeful and joyful moments to days where we feel completely powerless, and we don't want to do anything, you know, after all. And I think it's okay, you know, to have all of those feelings. The important thing is learning how to safeguard them. Learning how to hold, you know, both spectrums of the emotions. And just pushing forward every day. And showing up to be, you know, better, more responsible humans as it were. So that's the mindset we now take into our work.
Doherty: That's very well said. That's very well said. When I think of vibes. I was hearing someone talk about vibing just the other day. You know, to vibe with someone. You know, you talk about SustyVibes. You know, to vibe with someone is to really feel comfortable with them. To feel light. To feel happy. To be in the present moment. To feel safe. Right? That's how we talk about it in terms of our personal relationships, right?
So that's, I think, something we need to think about. How do we bring that energy into our work when we're working on these super heavy, wicked problems? And I don't know, I think old people forget about that. But, you know, younger people are still making the world. You know, they're still finding the world. Why don't you say more. I know, you have a lot of things you want to express about your work. Do you want to talk about some of your projects, or some of your research?
Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. And even just to touch on, you know, the idea of SustyVibes. You know, when I came into this work, you know, thinking about sustainable development, I had someone who said that even the concept of sustainable development sounds like an oxymoron. Because development is all about growth. And then you're talking about sustainability. You know, where do you find balance? And I was looking to create something, you know, that is really about making sustainability actionable, relatable, and also cool. So that it doesn't sound, you know, like things that don't fit together. So that we see it as a possibility. You know, where we don't, you know, see a sustainable idea and innovation, and we think, oh, this is, you know, completely foreign and impossible for us.
And that really has been that mindset. So it's about being comfortable making it, you know, part of our everyday lifestyle to talk about these issues. You know, to say, I'm a tree hugger. And that doesn't make me weird, you know, per se. I am a tree hugger because I believe that, you know, I'm a big part of nature. And whatever I do, you know, fits into the larger ecosystem. And that really has been, you know, the mindset we put into our work. So it's also funny, you talk about, you know, older people, elders, you know, intergenerational kind of work. I think it was sometime last year that we got into a project with Stanford University, and a couple of collaborators. Britt Wray, you know, looking really at what is the power in conversations around, you know, climate emotions. And thinking about how conversations and dialogue even among young people, and older people might be useful to help us kind of navigate these very difficult emotions.
And we've started a project. Intervention for Lago. It's happening both in Lagos, the UK and the US. And it's been interesting to see even older people talk about these difficult emotions that they have also had to cope with, deal with. But at the same time, they've not found, you know, ways to express them as we now have as young people. And it's just been really interesting to see them, you know, kind of offer advice or resilience. But at the same time, look to us to see how even in expressing emotions. In validating emotions, we find strength, you know, to cope through, you know, what, we're all going through as, you know, in the climate crisis. And that has kind of brought off an offshoot of a project we're now about to start, where we're looking for, you know, climate activists who are now older people over 60 in Nigeria, who have for a very long time been doing this work. Trying to see what narratives they've held on to for a very long time that has kept them to kind of continue and you know, pull through. And have that kind of march on mindset. That you just have to continue pouring in yourself to do this work.
And that, you know, ties really well with the topic, you know, the theme of this podcast. These elders have found joy in their work even though it's difficult. You know, they've found joy. And they've been able to hold both feelings of suffering and pain, with joy and, you know, accomplishments and achievements over time. And I think there are opportunities for us to also learn, you know, from our elders. And from older people when it comes to the climate crisis. So we're really excited to be doing that work with Stanford University, and you know, in Nigeria, as well. So I just wanted to touch on that.
Pihkala: Thank you, Jennifer. That's very profound and great to hear that you have made openings in this intergenerational dialogue. And one of the very sad things that can happen around climate issues is that there may be generational disputes. Or between people who have or seem to have different kinds of attitudes and behaviors. So there's a lot of bridge building needed in communities. And it's always great to hear when people have good experiences of that. It also sounds like you have been able to get away from others, to remain open to this full spectrum of life, all the different emotions as you, as you say. And I'm very much appreciating that you explicitly acknowledge the oscillation escalation between various moods.
And in my own research work about the various journeys that people have with climate emotions and different dimensions, the fact of oscillation has been very important there. So trying to validate that it's a very normal thing which happens. And also advocating that we need distancing in a healthy sense. So self care and community care and relaxation. So I hear a lot of things happening with SustyVibes that I've also been discussing in the more theoretical work. So very good to hear.
Uchendu: Thank you.
Doherty: Yeah. Jennifer, when you talk, I mean, a lot of this, I think, for the listeners, for everyone is, really. Well, we talk about environmental identity. So we have an identity about [this]. Part of our identity is how I relate to nature and the natural world. And it's claiming that identity, whatever that means for us. And it's always intersecting with all of our other cultural and gender and sexual identities. And, you know, so you're talking about claiming your environmental identity as a Nigerian person. And, as, I'm not sure how you think of yourself. And maybe as a young woman, or whatever terms that you know, you use. You're claiming this and helping other people. And other young people claim this. And, you know, it's cool, it's good, it's fun. It's important. It's not weird, as you say.
I started with this. And I used to take American young people out into the woods in the US for their therapy. And my co worker said, well what about me? How does this work for me as an adult? And that's how I got into my own idea of sustainable self, right? Personal sustainability. So like, we take our abstract sustainability ideas about the world and put it to our own life, you know. So it makes no sense to run ourselves down and burn ourselves out to save the planet. Because we are part of nature, you know, yeah. So that was my equation at the time. This idea of personal sustainability. Sustainable self. Your equation is SustyVibes. What other things in Nigeria and other parts of the world in terms of creating their own visions? Or what do you see about it?
Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I've had young people come up to me to say, even just the concept of SustyVibes has inspired them to start, you know, new initiatives where they just think in terms of possibilities. You know, as you mentioned, you know, sustainable futures. And what that would look like. And that, for me, has been just very fulfilling to see. You know, that this concept or this idea resonates with a lot of people. When we host a party, for example, and we have lots of people sign up and attend, it's very validating.
And even with SustyVibes, our eco anxiety work is channeled through something called the Eco Anxiety Africa Project. Which we started last year in February actually. And the amount of you know, how many people have embraced you know, that project. Have reached out. Have, you know, felt very validated. Have said, oh, we needed this for a very long time. And I've had even older environmentalists say, eco anxiety has been with us for a very long time. We've just not had a word, you know, to define and kind of conceptualize it. So it feels good to, you know, see people see these initiatives and this project and, you know, just fully embrace it. And say they feel validated. You know, they feel kind of empowered to say that they are not crazy to have all of these emotions. That these are real human experiences that make us human. And it's even within these emotions, that we find strengths to act for, you know, environmental protection. So I think that has been really useful for us. Yeah.
Doherty: Yeah. Anxiety as an ally. You know, it's a normal part of our emotional equipment to feel anxious about threats. And I think, traditionally, sustainability, like you talk about sustainable development, is very intellectual. It's very economic. It's very reductionistic. Even people that understand science and conservation. Wildlife conservation. A lot of these people have silently suffered because of [being] scientists themselves. And the economists and the activists haven't had that emotional language. So it is really empowering to be able to share these things. And then not feel like you're weak or less than or not as rigorous and things like that.
Uchendu: Absolutely. Yeah.
Pihkala: Yeah. And it's very important, sort of public work, and public witness. And I've heard similar things from older people in Finland. Now that for the last six years, we've had more discussion about eco emotions in Finland. So they have been [coming] to me. And my colleagues say that, you know, in the early 1970s, with the oil crisis, we did feel this kind of anxiety already then. But there were just no words for it. So that seems to be a thing to be discussed in various parts of the world. How to connect the generations with some more active now and then the older ones. And find ways to join forces. And what about elsewhere in Africa? I know that's a huge continent. But do you have some sort of friend organizations in countries or areas nearby? So how's the scene around that?
Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the projects, the research projects, I'm working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode, looking at Anglophone West Africa. And with every organization, we've reached out to collaborate. You know, they've said, you know, yes, this is something that's been needed. This is a gap, you know, in our work. We've done kind of climate adaptation, or mitigation in ways that have been very much about kind of infrastructure, or funding. You know, economics of things without looking at the social fabric. You know, our well being. And what adaptation means through and through. And it's been very, you know, good to see, you know, project partners. So with TEAP [The Eco-anxiety in Africa Project], what we've done is to host monthly webinars.
And we've tried to find, you know, people in other parts of Africa who resonate with this idea. So we've had, you know, webinars with collaborators in Kenya. You know, we have one later this weekend with collaborators in Egypt, you know, who want to explore things like empathy. And how it, you know, really supports us in, you know, navigating climate anxiety, eco anxiety. So it's been very interesting, you know, to see that kind of spectrum. You know, there's folks in Ghana, who are using the arts to also explore, you know, this topic. And so you see, when you see all of these projects coming up, you're excited because it kind of resonates deep. And it shows that we're making progress.
We are now kind of filling the gap. Filling the knowledge gap to have more about these conversations, because advocacy is key. The next level would be, how do we then put this into policy? How do our environmental and health ministries, you know, come together to look at how to really support people when we talk about climate adaptation? So it's, you know, it's been refreshing to see, you know, this new direction, and this conversation. And one thing I didn't talk about is, SustyVibes as part of the consortium working on, you know, the really global dialogues on climate and mental health with the Wellcome Trust. And we're really looking forward to leading a lot of these projects, you know, particularly in the Global South. Working with all of our consortium partners in _____ University and whatnot. So it's, it's been good to see that this direction, this attention, and all of these opportunities are coming up to do this kind of work.
Doherty: Yeah, this is great. This is a great, great conversation. We're coming to the end of our time. And I think we really succeeded in Jennifer, just learning a little bit about you and your work. You know, practically for the listeners, what you're hearing is how to deal with eco anxiety. You know, it is painful. It is scary. It is overwhelming, but we don't eliminate it, we simply add additional emotions to help support. So on each side of my anxiety, I have empathy. and I have my positive vibrations. And I have my relationships, right? And I have my hope. So it's not black and white. It's about multiple emotions in harmony. And then that anxiety kind of has its place. But it's not alone.
And then, of course, one thing we might do in the future, all of us, is do some sort of geography of eco anxiety. You know, because different regions have different variations. Jennifer, you're not tapping into the shame that someone maybe in some more privileged places tap into. So there's a geography of this as well. But I really appreciate your time. And Panu I know you're working on how to cope. [Do] you want to click close us off with some comments today, Panu?
Pihkala: Well, warm thanks, Jennifer, for your time. And all this lived wisdom you are bringing both to this conversation and for the places where you are working together with others. So there's been great content in relation to helpful coping with emotions. Which are sort of embodied methods happening both in oneself and together with others. So one warm thanks, Jennifer, for all that.
Uchendu: Thanks so much, Panu and Thomas.
Doherty: Yeah. And I'm gonna get started with my day here and in Northwestern US. Panue, you have your evening. Jennifer, what's the rest of your day hold for you?
Uchendu: I have one last meeting for the day. And I will just wrap up. Yeah, it's almost 6pm here.
Doherty: All right. So you still have some work to do before you can get healthy. Thanks again, Jennifer. We'll have a number of good links in our show notes. And we'll be getting this episode out soon.
Uchendu: Thank you.
Doherty: Thank you all and to the listeners.
Uchendu: Thanks. Bye.
Pihkala: Take care. Bye bye.
Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
