Season 2, Episode 9: Sitting Around the Fire / Permission to Feel Joy
image credit | Levi Guzman
Season 2, Episode 9: Sitting Around the Fire / Permission to Feel Joy
Thomas and Panu take a moment to “sit around the fire” at the end of 2022 and winter time in the northern latitudes, as Panu watches the snowy weather in Helsinki, and Thomas muses about world events and his family’s yearly solstice ceremony. Listen in as the pair reflect on global dangers and our feelings about them —ranging from the brutal conflict in Ukraine and renewed threat of nuclear war to new and often unexpressed stress and unease as our seasons and weathers change around the world. And, holding the contradictions: Watching exciting World Cup matches against the backdrop of systemic injustices, and the “holiday season” with its frenetic, electronic consumerism and opportunity for simple, authentic connections with loved ones. Panu and Thomas model the healthy process of ecological conversations: sharing the deep and dark thoughts we have with safe and trusting listeners, bearing witness, and also naturally finding the bright parts of life, gratitude and “permission to feel joy.” Remember, you are not alone. Please find your own healthy rituals. Look forward to more unique episodes of our podcast in the new year and please support us at Patreon and at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
Links
“Sit Around the Fire” From composer Jon Hopkins with spoken word by Ram Dass
Viola Sampson, “Darkening quarter”, in Rust, M.-J. & Totton, N. (eds.) (2012), Vital signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis. Karnac, pp. 3-16. Available for purchase.
And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots.
Transcript
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
[music: “CC&H theme music”]
Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.
Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. Our show for people around the globe who are thinking and most importantly, feeling—take a breath there listeners—who are feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. Our emotional responses. And how all these issues sit with us in our lives.
And Panu and I are sitting here toward the end of 2022. And we have a metaphor of we're not personally together, we're drawn together through our technology. But we're metaphorically sitting around the fire here. Gathering our thoughts about the end of the year. The show is a public conversation about climate feelings, climate emotion, some of our professional and our academic research work and our guests and people that are exploring this and also just the personal side. And all you listeners have your own personal side. So we're here to talk about some of this and really have a sitting around the fire end of the year energy for ourselves. And as I talk about these things, Panu , what's up for you there in Finland, near Helsinki at this time of the year?
Pihkala: When I look around, from this place, sitting next to the fire, I see a lot of snow, which personally is a great source of joy. And for many Finns, we are a people accustomed to snow. In Helsinki, which is near to the Baltic Sea, it's always been a bit more irregular than inland. And now with global warming, it's been getting even more irregular. We even had one winter a couple of years ago, when we had practically no snow at all. And people were pretty miserable. And no cross country skiing, no going downhill for kids. And even the public health impacts are serious because there's less light and that sort of thing. So now there's lots of gladness, because of the heavy amount of snow. And it's been here since mid November.
But of course, as usual in life, there's ambiguities. At the same time, we are living this special time when there's war in Ukraine. And energy transition is going strong in Europe, but still, there's gonna be a lack of electricity in the winter and many people in Finland are also afraid of how high the cost of their electricity bill will be. So this nice snow with winter with cold temperatures is also going to bring some trouble here.
Doherty: So yes, where you are in Finland, this terrible war and conflict in Ukraine is very much more present in your daily life [than] for listeners that are not not close to that conflict. And does it cause fear and worry in your family?
Pihkala: Well, the human mind is quite adaptive. And springtime was very difficult for many Finns. There was the cumulative impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. And then the war began, and it evoked lots of national traumas in Finland, about the difficult relations with our East neighbor. There's also been lots of great cultural exchange between Finland and Russia. So I definitely don't want to characterize it only as a struggle or rivalry. But there is also the very troublesome history of the Second World War. And we still have people who lived through that period. And it's much present in the national psyche, so to speak, so that's been causing lots of fear and worry and anxiety.
But then as the months go on, people have calmed down. And there's been all sorts of actions being done and so on. So it's on the back of people's minds, of course. And this connects with a major theme in our podcast, the impacts of the climate climate crisis. Because that's also something that's there, at least on the back of our minds, regardless of how actively we think and feel about it.
Doherty: Yeah, so you know, we're holding this, this podcast. You know, listeners, if you're new, this podcast is our public conversation. And also our personal lived experience of what we feel about the state of the world. I mean we focus particularly on climate and environmental issues. But we have these meta stressors that all of us are holding. You know, the war. Human’s propensity to be at war with each other. And imperialism and fights over resources in this whole geopolitical chess match of wars that Europe has been beset with, as long as we can see in history.
And so we're holding space for how war is affecting us, much like climate change. You know, there's direct, indirect and emotional impacts of the war in Ukraine. I mean, it's directly impacting people in Ukraine and in Russia and surrounding areas. The carnage, the destruction, the death, the suffering. You know, it's a true disaster on many levels. And then also the indirect ripple effects of that all through the world. And how it affects our politics and our own economy. And whether we have heat in the winter, you know. And then the emotional impacts of just sitting from a distance and knowing it's all occurring, even if we feel relatively safe, and untouched, where we are. We're not untouched emotionally about all these kinds of things.
So just, you know, again, to the listeners, just realizing you're not untouched, emotionally. Your emotions and feelings are activated. You know, your body sensations. All the emotions in your body. And then we're talking about the language for our emotions. Our feeling language. You know, anxiety is another thing for people.
Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. When there's so much uncertainty about whether there's gonna be snow, or what the winter's gonna be like. So this snow anxiety or winter longing or winter grief. And the Finnish equivalents are something that I've been often discussing, both in the Finnish media and in some international media also. And we've been thinking together with some colleagues that what kind of social practices would we need to encounter these kinds of emotions and feelings? So perhaps some events, at least talking about it's doing some symbolic actions that go to the territory of art and performance and ritual and so on. But now, we are living in the midst of the snow so no need for that now.
And one big dimension of these macro worries, or global stressors is, of course, the threat of nuclear war. And that's something which the war in Ukraine, also fortified and strengthened in many people's minds. And that impact, I think, extends also beyond Europe, but it's probably the heaviest in Europe. But how about you, Thomas, what's on your mind when you're sitting around this fire in the dark time of winter?
Doherty: Yeah, so here in the Northern Hemisphere, it's the dark time. So there's this great kind of tug of war between wanting to be quiet and to be comfortable and to, you know, hibernate a little bit. And then also the pull towards celebration and Hanukkah and Christmas and other holidays. And, of course, consumerism and all the advertising and cultural rituals. And then also with the positive parts of gathering with family. And I have family members that are coming into town. Literally, you know, staying at my home and coming to see myself.
My daughter is performing in a school Christmas performance the next couple of nights that has all the young people. The school band, all the different musicians in the school. And the choir, and the dancers and artists. All the students put on a winter festival celebration that's quite beautiful. And so just such such warm, positive feelings about all of those kinds of things that are happening all around the world. So just listeners can kind of be thinking about this. Again, holding space for our personal lives. And then also all this heavy stuff with just the tragic human actions in Ukraine and the threat of nuclear war. And I think this time of the year, people will because we are going through a transition of a changing global climate there is loss. Or what we were used to. There's either winter loss, snow loss, because we're letting go of these snow patterns. Particularly people that are mountaineers, or skiers or outdoor people are letting go of what they understand of the winters in some ways. And then, of course, there's summer grief as well, for folks in the Southern Hemisphere. As we know, in places like Australia with black summer fires and things that you know, summer is not the same, either.
And so we all globally are being stretched and stressed a little bit. And to try to be, you know, make peace and be comfortable with all these global environmental changes. So just, it seems a little bit obvious to say, but this is just something to hold space for. That we're thinking about and, you know, coping and things like that.
Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So different cultures, and also subgroups in various cultures will have different things that they hold in great record and significance, and which climate change is then threatening. So I totally agree that there's a great need for cultural sensitivity. And, also, preferably possibilities for people to think about and feel about how this relates to me and the people close to me and the locals. And as you say, Thomas, in some parts of the world, it's more anxiety related to the summer and not to the winter. So that's one example. And I'm also thinking about the discussion we had with Charles Ogunbode and his research of climate change reactions and emotions in Africa, for example.
Doherty: Yeah, what did you take away from our conversation with Charles? What are you thinking about?
Pihkala: Well, many things as you usually do. And it's fascinating to hear a bit about his perspective on life. But of course, growing [up] in Nigeria, and growing up in Finland are quite different areas and still there can be things in common, like, appreciating the local natural environments or the forms of the modern human world. And so, that always strikes me as great contextual differences, but also, the great deal of things we have in common, just by being human, especially if there's similar value orientation.
Doherty: Yeah, I mean this would be the episode that I think will be just previous to this episode for listeners if they're looking. But you know, Charles has studied people's feelings in Africa and East Africa and West Africa about climate change. And really, we talked a bit about that relationship between kind of resignation and fatalism. Like I cannot do anything about this, I have so many other things to think about. I can't really take on this particular global problem. But also a sense of deeper resilience. Well, I'm going to make it through. I've made it through these other problems, too.
So all of us, I think, are balancing that sense of, you know, resignation, and also resilience. That we're going to make it through, you know. And again, each listener of this episode has their own personal story. And so just even just knowing that you're not alone. Like we recognize that your story of being in your shoes, with your family, where you live on the planet, you have your story. Herein the Northern Hemisphere, we're in this darkening part of the year. So we want to kind of come together and be inside and think about things. You know, in other parts of the globe, people are outside. It's warmer, they're active. They're called into action and things like that.
Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And one thing that's been on my mind lately is that a long time project of conceptualizing a process model of eco anxiety and ecological grief finally came out as a journal article in an academic publication. Of course, I always try to do those with a style that would be as easily understandable as it can be in an academic publication. And we'll actually talk about that model in one of the forthcoming episodes. So there's very interesting episodes coming up next year. And now, I don't want to go into too much detail now, but in the model test, key dimensions related to action, grieving, and then having distance. And this having a distance can include both self care and avoidance.
And I think this is closely related to what you, Thomas, said about the various contexts. And in some situations, people really have to do some distance. So it's not always, always evil, so to say. But it has to be evaluated contextually. That what's the resources of the people to respond? And what are the conditions, both socially and ecologically. But this idea of self care and community care is, of course, something we have been heavily discussing in this podcast also during the year. And that's something that you, Thomas, have been writing about and speaking about for a great number of years. So for me, that's one of the themes that emerges strongly from your written work.
Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Panu. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I'm really intrigued about your use of the word distance. You know, in your coping model, because I think it's a juicy topic for listeners to think about this idea of distance. Even in our. I mean, I know, here, where I am, in the US, people are often, you know, swept up in the holiday season. And there's positive rituals. And there's also consumerism. And buying things and advertisements. And, you know, so the distance can be just. If I can kind of articulate this, all these global things we're talking about, at best we remain open to them. Our eyes are open to them. We're bearing witness to all this stuff. We're not in denial about these issues. War, nuclear war, the aggression in Ukraine, the history of colonialism and imperialism in the world, our power grid, and how we rely on fossil fuels. And how that becomes an easy way for global piracy and power to take over fossil fuels. And how we have the potential for different, maybe more just, and sustainable technologies. So just being aware of all that sort of stuff and keeping our eyes open to it. But then we can look away also to other things.
So I think that's the way to think about it. [It's] like, okay, I'm aware of all these troubling things. And that's in my sight, but I can also turn my gaze toward other beautiful things as well. And my family and my children. And I'm not in denial of those other things. As it came up recently in our conversation somewhere along the line, the whole myth of the ostrich. You know, that the ostrich has their head in the sand. You know, but ostriches don't really do that. That's a myth. You know, when they're under threat, they either move away, or they camouflage themselves, but they don't stick their head in the sand. You know, that human image we have. But ironically, ostriches tend their eggs in underground nests. And when their head is in the sand, it's most likely because they're tending their eggs.
And so we do have to focus on our own lives. And our own personal health and well being. Our children. Our family. And that's a good place to put our gaze. And it doesn't mean that we're forgetting about all these other things, you know. But, you know, at any given moment, you know. And even in the next few weeks, it's going to be most important to put our gaze with ourselves and our families and on true positive things that are happening. And then not necessarily let this stuff in the world drain us of our joy. That's true joy.
Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. This sort of permission to feel joy. IIolupa would be my Finnish word for that. I think that's a very important topic. And something we touched upon in a conversation with Daniela Molnar, a very interesting artist. And that's gonna come up on the website also. That [future podcast] episode. And it's also closely related to this topic of feelings of inadequacy, which we have discussed a couple of times in the podcast. Because they seem to be so hugely common among people who care about matters. And that can become an obstacle to discuss sort of healthy distancing. That feelings of inadequacy then become stronger.
So that could be one hoped for takeaway from this episode would be to give ourselves and each other permission also to do some healthy distancing. And self care and community care during this period. And I think this time in the natural world in the Northern Hemisphere. The darkening quarter, as Viola Sampson, an author of a great essay about this in ecopsychology, puts it. And we could use that also to benefit us, because it can allow us to do some inner journeys. And you can sort of turn a bit inwards from all the hustle in the outer world. And hopefully this time of the seasons would give some possibilities for that for as many people as possible. But I heard, Thomas, you say that in our pre conversation that you've also very literally taken some time out and sort of retreated some time ago.
Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, Panu and I always have a little pre-planning conversation before we record. And, you know, we just empty our sack of all the things that we're doing. And just like, you know, as two friends or colleagues would. You know, sitting around the fire somewhere, that's our model today. And I recently did a retreat. I have a practice of doing a mindfulness meditation retreat for myself in early December each year. It's very hard to do, because, of course, I'm a parent. And I have all my work and my deadlines. And so it really takes a lot of courage and energy to tear myself away for a weekend to be in a retreat, reflective mode. But invariably, it helps me to look out at the world with new eyes.
And so that's part of I think, the potential for this time of the year for people. Is to take a moment just to look at the world. And to find some new eyes. And it's quite existential. I think about just humanity and time and our human culture. I've been reading The Dawn of Everything –the David Graeber and David Wengrow book that many listeners might be aware of. And, you know, just thinking in big terms about time and society. And, again, this play of humanity that we're immersed in. So yeah, I think it comes back to that. That toggling between bearing witness to this terrible stuff, and also bearing witness to the beauty in our lives, and our family and our children. Even things like the World Cup, which is happening today. Or at this time around the world. You know, France and Morocco are playing in the World Cup later today. And that's one of our few global rituals that we have as the World Cup and soccer and football. And there's so many levels to that. The artistry and the athleticism of the football players is just so striking. But of course, the intense marketing and consumerism surrounding the World Cup. And the corruption and Qatar and just the whole backstory of that. So it's a mess of things, right? That we have to deal with there.
And some people, you know, aren't really aware of all that stuff. But a lot of us are aware of all those different levels. And so we're going to celebrate the players and the athleticism and the adventure of those games. And the celebration and joining together and the singing and the camaraderie. And also realize there's a lot of other pieces going on there. It's just a lot. It never ends, Panu. You know, the news has all these stories about fusion reactors and quantum computing in all these recent scientific discoveries. And, you know, every year there's a new discovery that may or may not be helpful. And all this sort of stuff. So we have to sort of keep our eyes on the true justice and fairness in the world and how to focus on that. Yeah, what else is coming up for you as we kind of chat here?
Pihkala: Yeah. Speaking of the World World Cup. I've usually watched those. And it's great that humanity comes together. But of course, it's imbued with lots of ambiguities and ethical issues. And those need attention and especially this year, it's been much more ambivalent than usually. And this is something that people together must then discuss and make decisions. And they are often not easy ones to make.
And speaking of the sort of [The] Dawn of Everything type of things and the solstice time, I've been fascinated by this new documentary about ancient cultures. And once again reminded of how many of the very old structures of humanity, built us calendars linked with the cycle of the sun and the annual year. So this is something that really goes deep into the rules of civilization. And I think it's also a profound statement to the connections between humans and the more than human world. And definitely during this dark time in the Northern Hemisphere, there must have been lots of watching of the stars also during this time of the year. And this is, of course, something very pertinent in relation to electricity. And also global warming and other ecological issues. So that's some counterculture that I think we really would need to also have actual fires and go out in the dark evenings and nights to take a look at the starry sky.
Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great connection with all the ancient cultures. We know the Newgrange, Stonehenge, the Aztecs. You know, all around the world. These cultural calendars. Tracking. Yeah, so the solstice is coming up here soon in the Northern Hemisphere. I do encourage listeners to be within all the things that are going on, and one of the heart of this season is celebrating the solstice. Either the summer solstice in the south or the winter solstice in the north.
And, you know, I know myself, my family, and we have a solstice gathering. A very simple solstice celebration every year that I would encourage listeners to think about. Where we go outside in our yard. And we have a fire and we stand in a circle and have candles. And, you know, we reflect on the end of the year. We blow out our candles and let it be dark for a moment. And then we light the candle from the fire. And then in turn, everyone lights each other's candle going around the circle. Just [a] very simple ritual, but it helps us to sort of recognize the end of the old year and the beginning of the new year. And I know for me, as soon as I do that, it helps the whole Christmas thing to make more sense for myself. And all the marketing and things just go away.
And I realized there's a true core. So I've been able to find a true core of that time of the year that's very authentic. Very simple, very authentic, doesn't cost a lot of money. It just is very analog, you know, it's very human. So I encourage people to find some analog moments. Which I mean, not digital, not on a computer. You know, being out in nature with your head under the stars and feeling the air on your skin. Even taking a long walk or being outdoors can be really helpful for our bodies at this time of the year. So, a lot of it is coping, you know, healthy as always healthy coping for each season of our lives.
Pihkala: Yeah, that's a nice phrase. Seasons of our lives are linked with these natural seasons. And good to hear about this ritual of Solstice we haven't spoken about that ever. And that goes into the category of ritual imagination and creativity. And I think that's one of the crucial skills for us. In this ambivalent time that we are living in. I'd like to share a quote from this essay, The Darkening Quarter by Viola Sampson. Which is from a book called Vital Signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis, edited by Mary-Jayne Rust and Nick Totton. So here it is.
And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots.
Doherty: That's a very nice quote. And we can put that in our show notes. You know, yeah, different things that draw us down to our roots. That's a good takeaway for us. And for the listeners, you know, what's going to draw you in a healthy way down to your roots here in this particular season. And I want to thank everyone for joining us on our journey.
This year, I know we have regular listeners around the world. I hear from people that have come, you know, along the journey with us now. And all of our episodes. Over 20 episodes that we've done over the course of 2022. This is the end of our first year on this project. So I really thank the listeners who have supported us. And, you know, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com, our website where you can find descriptions of all our previous episodes and links. And you can find this page on Patreon. And we do need support to make this project happen. This is an all volunteer effort. And we need support to pay our very gifted intern. And ideally, we would have support to compensate our guests that come and give up their time. And support for technology and things like that. So at people's end of the year, think about supporting our podcast, among other things in your life. And Panu, what's going to happen here in a little bit as after we sign off?
Pihkala: Yeah, it's a dark, snowy evening in Helsinki. And the boys will soon be home from their hobbies. And the academic year is getting close to its end. So one more week of work and going over some essays by students. I do some teaching, mostly research. So that's on my agenda before taking a break from the computers. And during Christmas, and New Year. And how about you, Thomas? What's up?
Doherty: Well, like a lot of listeners, I have guests in my home. And I have my mother-in-law. My late wife's mother is visiting. And we have family and we're gonna watch my daughter in a performance among all of her fellow students this evening. Also one of my jobs today is to be a dad and to hold space for my 15 year old daughter who's nervous about her big dance performance. And really just have joy in the beauty of all these young people and all their talents.
And I'm going to root for the best team to win in the World Cup match today. And I have my own heavy journey of writing and things that I'm trying to do and create, which I'll try to put some time into today. So I feel like I've done my work. My daily work. Yeah, so I wish that for all of us that you can get your daily duties done and also find some joy. So our theme, one of our themes today was permission to find some joy at this time of the year. And that doesn't doesn't mean that you're burying your head in the sand. There are truly some beautiful things in the world to be thankful for at this time of the year. So take care of yourself, Panu.
Pihkala: You too, Thomas. And thanks all the listeners for this and do take care.
Doherty: Take care everyone. We'll talk to you in the new year. And you all have good holidays however you celebrate them.
Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
