Season 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray
image credit | Tyler Nix
Season 1, Episode 9 | Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray
This episode is part two of Climate Change and Happiness’s series focusing on childbearing decisions in a time of climate disruption. Science journalist and Gen Dread creator Britt Wray joins Thomas and Panu. Britt describes her “long and winding road” through climate emotions, inspired by her own journey toward having a child. She and Panu reminisce about their earlier conversations about grief and survivorship when Britt was beginning her research. Britt notes her personal shift from “asking is it okay to have a child, to what's required to have a child today? How do we support children in this world?” Thomas noted how Britt’s public exploration of her parenting decisions through her Gen Dread newsletter has filled a void for prospective parents as therapists and mental health continue to become schooled in addressing climate concerns. Wray offers a look into her forthcoming book Generation Dread that compiles her insights about coping and meaning-making amid the climate crisis. Britt reminds us that making decisions about having a child, or not, does not mean that feelings about the climate crisis fade away, and she normalizes how we all can find ourselves toggling between “disaster mode” and quiet contemplation of the cosmos. Join us for a rich and intimate conversation.
Links
Gen Dread Newsletter
Generation Dread: Finding Purpose in an Age of Climate Crisis
Robert J. Lifton - Survivor Mission
Emerging research on Matresence (the developmental process of becoming a mother) by Aurelie Athan and Allison Davis
Thomas Attig - Relearning the World
Transcript
Season 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray
[music: “CC&H theme music”]
Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.
Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is a podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. The personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses. And today we have a guest.
Britt Wray: Hi, I'm Britt Wray.
Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Britt. We are very glad that you found the time to come to talk with us. We have a certain history over the last couple of years. You and I have been talking about climate emotions and eco anxiety and other stuff several times. And it's been really exciting to follow both the development of your soon coming new book. And, of course, the great newsletter, Gen Dread, that you've been running. So there's plenty of things to talk about related to the topics of our podcast. Which is really about living in the times of the climate crisis and the ecological crisis. But how would you like to describe the standpoint where you're coming [from] Britt? I know plenty of that, but what would you like to share for the beginners?
Wray: Sure. Thanks, Panu. It's true. We met a few years ago now. Due to this work that overlaps, I actually reached out to both of you, both Thomas and Panu, for early interviews in my research for this book I have coming out. Generation Dread. Which is about the psychological underpinnings and impacts and disturbances emotionally that the climate crisis is setting into our lives in different ways – depending on who we are and how we're being exposed to it.
And I was drawn to do this work because of my own experience with really intense eco anxiety that set in several years ago, 2017-ish when my partner and I started having conversations about trying to get pregnant. And, of course, the climate crisis was nothing new to me. I had studied conservation biology in my undergrad. I had written a book about technologies to try and lessen the blow of the biodiversity crisis. I was very much on the environmental beat. But this dilemma of whether or not we [should] have a child really burst through any defenses I had left for feeling somewhat comfortable in the climate crisis.
And [it] became an existential emotional issue. Because the question of whether or not you're going to bring life into the world is of that nature, right? Especially life. A person who's not asking to be here and doesn't need to be here. And you're signing them up to witness ecological decline for the rest of their days on this planet.
And at the time, I felt very alone in those feelings. I didn't see them reflected by anyone around me. It was before this became a huge talking point as it is now. Where we've gotten op-eds about it in all the major newspapers. And we've got polls and surveys from researchers looking into this phenomenon. Then, I felt abject and deviant and strange for even connecting the climate crisis to my reproductive decision making, which made it [a] more difficult experience for me — But also something I was fascinated by and curious about.
And I thought, okay, if I'm now feeling waves of grief and anxiety, but also a lot of rage. Rage at the idea that the situation has become so bad that people in my generation have to bear the cost of not getting to know our own children. Because of [the] inaction of leaders and people put in power, who are supposed to protect us and make the future a livable place. Wow! What else is this doing to people? And people who are not as privileged and protected as me? — And are much more exposed to the direct effects already. I mean, how is this shaking down?
And I started to turn over the stones as a science communicator, because that's what I am. A science writer and broadcaster. And then I realized, oh, that's one tiny sliver of the emotional impact that the planetary health crisis is having on people. And we need to talk about this more. And so that's why I came to interview both of you and many, many others from a variety of fields. And develop a sense of how we can cope as individuals with all of this. But also come together collectively in a way of injecting our consciousness with new forms of stability and resilience and awareness for being at this time. And working collectively to try and create a better future than we otherwise expect.
So, I want to thank you both for being people out there, I could go to at that time who were already thinking about this. And, as you know, the topic has just exploded in the years since then. It's been pretty incredible to watch the relevance among the public at large spike, which we wish it wouldn't have to. But at the same time, there's a lot of momentum around understanding these emotions now, which I think is ultimately a really good thing.
Doherty: Yeah. Well, that's really well said, Britt. I mean, I was talking to a client I'm working with who's a climate change person [who] has also been doing this for years. And we were saying, you know, some folks have been in the auditorium for a long time working on this stuff, but it's a big auditorium. And now suddenly, the seats are starting to fill. You know, there's other people coming in. And so, yeah, it is .. realizing that even though we're kind of pathfinders, you know, there's a lot of people just coming on to the scene.
So I wonder, … do you chart a developmental course for yourself, even since this project? You must have come a long way personally, you know, in your thinking. I think that could be one thing we could talk about is how this project changed you. Or what you discovered. It was kind of like a rite of passage or a heroine's journey or something, right? Because I know you've had, do you have a — I don't know much about your family now. We could talk about our families too. … How do you think the project has changed you or what have been some insights, you know, that made you a better person?
Wray: It's been pretty dramatic. In terms of how writing this book has changed my life. It was - now I understand why writers say you should write from pain. You know, you should spin it out into something that you transform into beauty. And that it's this just drive within you that can give a lot. But you really go into the bottom of the U shaped curve.
I think writing the book both made me more terrified, depressed, enraged, anxious than I've ever been in my life. But also, as it broke my heart open, it also healed it. And brought me the most robust and radical forms of coping. And transforming myself into a better way of being able to deal with what's going on than I could have possibly thought of accessing before. So it holds that tension. But really, by exploring the existential fears and insecurities of many different people through the book, and reflecting on my own situation. That insight. The urgency. It really, you know, there's a moral clarity involved with paying attention to these issues, which is incredibly motivating and purposeful. And it gives a lot of meaning.
It's a meaning focused coping approach. And it brushes the bullshit aside in terms of other distractions. And things to spend one's time and energies on. And then you start getting on that soul level with other people. And meeting them. Being able to stand in the fire with them on issues that are so important. And that they might not feel like they have people to talk to about. Which then becomes this kind of social glue for repairing the social fabric in an amazingly potent way. And that injected my work with new meaning.
I realized, okay, there's a lot of people hurting out there. There's a lot of people at a loss for how to handle these emotions. We need to pay attention to how we are supporting each other and ourselves with this, so that we don't maladaptively cope. So that we don't fall into immobilizing forms of paralysis around the crisis. So that we don't, you know, ascribe to doomism, and believe it's too late to make any actions that could make a difference and be worthwhile. But that are motivating and strengthening and ways of finding new forms of connection and trust within the human species for being here at this time. I mean, all these really, it sounds so grandiose, but really, that's what this crisis does to you.
And, all of that was incredibly powerful for me such that I just finished my PhD in a totally different subject. In science communication with a focus on synthetic biology. Newly minted doctorate. Dropped that. Abandoned that. Moved into this field as a non clinician, non psychologist, non psychiatrist. You know, but did the grunt work to basically try and get another PhD level of knowledge in it. And then eventually be able to apply to do this postdoc I'm now doing at Stanford University in the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine where I research the mental health impacts of the climate crisis on emerging adults. So that I can, you know, try and contribute with all the amazing people who are doing this work now to create mental health protection and promotion strategies for this globally distributed vulnerable population that we know is feeling really anxious about the climate crisis in ways that are debilitating for many.
And then also, through finding the coping mechanisms with my research, I was able to no longer be so rattled. Not, you know, have these over-pourings of dark visions about everything that were rubbing off on the people around me, like my partner, for example. I just, I had found myself in a place where I couldn't talk about the future without overlaying a filter of apocalyptic possibility. And, you know, so I needed to find my balance. I needed to make meaning from what's going on. And I did so in a way that the original dilemma that got me into this feeling like oh, my gosh, I can't bring a kid into the situation, no longer at all became my story.
And I shifted from asking is it okay to have a child to what's required to have a child today? How do we support children in this world? And I now have a six month old who brings me tons of joy. So that wouldn't have happened without the book, I don't think. And without making new colleagues like you, and so many others that are creating avenues of radical hope in this situation. And, yeah, so long windy answer to your question. I think it changed me personally, and my family and professionally in terms of what I'm not focused on.
Pihkala: Thanks so much, Britt, for sharing that. That's very rich and profound. And [a] long and winding road might be a very apt metaphor. And what I hear you describe is a sort of existential process or a process of transformation. And, of course, I'm very glad about the end results. That after what I reckon, are many fluctuations along the way and many curves on the road. You've reached better coping skills and social connections and sort of giving yourself permission to feel all kinds of feelings. That's what this podcast is also, much about.
And then the child is here, too, which is a great source of gladness. And there's so many things to discuss here. But one that I want to ask because it's close to myself, also. I did this book about eco anxiety and hope in Finnish in 2017. And that got me into a lot of media stuff in Finland. I do remember those times that it's sometimes tricky that sort of people are looking up to you. That what should we do about this thing? And it's so huge and complex. And did you ever have, you know, feelings of the so-called impostor syndrome, or that kind of? How did you manage that part of the process where many people started asking you about what should we do about this?
Wray: Oh, gosh, yeah. That's just a normal part of my reality now. Because, you know, I have a newsletter, which explores these topics, much like your podcast does. And I have really engaged [with] readers who are amazing. And sometimes my inbox gets filled with their nightmares, you know. And holding that in a way that is supportive and containing for others, but also recognizing I'm in the crisis too. And I don't have the solutions. I have offerings of things that have worked for me and others that they can try, but it's also a gentle walk, because I'm not a clinician. And I'm not supposed to be giving advice. So doing that in a way that's professionally responsible around those items, but still seeing them as a kindred spirit. And understanding where they are and knowing what it feels like. And that they need to know they're not alone. And find that connection. And some ideas for coping in a peer support way is something that confronts me with those feelings of I can't take away your pain, you know.
But it tips over into some especially dangerous territory when I get young people writing me who are clearly suicidal around the climate crisis. Then I have to be extremely careful. And I refer to my clinical colleagues in those instances on how to best direct them in what fashion. But yeah, it's a lot. I mean, it's heavy. And this is the kind of work that I know a lot of climate aware therapists have to do. It's special in the sense that you have to process your own attachment to the source of the strain that they're experiencing and communicating to you. Because this is a universal problem.
Doherty: Yeah.
Pihkala: How does that sound to you, Thomas, as a climate therapist?
Doherty: Yeah. I'm very mindful of all this as we're talking. I mean, I just want to say, thanks, Britt. I really appreciate your work. You know, I mean, your work fills a void. It just fills a void for people. I mean the way our system works in society, therapists and mental health people aren't necessarily - they aren't, they haven't been trained to work on these kinds of societal issues. It is new. And, you know, therapists aren't trained to have podcasts or newsletters or even any of that kind of stuff or do broad public education. And so there is a natural gap in our societal system for this kind of thing. I mean, the elephant in the room, of course, is leadership in society is not doing this.
I know, in Finland, where Panu lives, the government is actually thinking about eco anxiety and even doing programs from the top. But we at least in the United States don't have that structure, you know, at all. And so it's this void. And so people do feel like climate hostages. You know, we're kind of on a train or a boat, you know, A Titanic kind of steaming toward an iceberg. And whoever's up in the captain's chair doesn't seem to share our vision of what's going on. And so that's, yeah, it's inherently political. You know, for me, it comes down to environmental identity. That's where I go with the work is like. How does, you know, our angst is an invitation, you know, to think about ourselves in a new way. And remind ourselves about our values and who we are and our eco timeline. You know, our timeline of nature and the natural world and things like that.
Wray: Right.
Doherty: And it seems like what's happening, you know, with having a child. I mean, I have one daughter. She's 14. My wife and I were very mindful. My late wife. My wife died of breast cancer five years ago. So —
Wray
Sorry.
Doherty : You know, we had a lot of, yeah, we had a lot of, you know, we were very mindful about having a child. And, you know, Eva was born in our house. In a tub in our house in the same room that she lives in now. And she's healthy. And it's great. But yeah, we were also actively thinking about a second child. And really weighing all that sort of stuff. So I can identify with this.
But I think, you know, one of the psychology angles of this is that we have eco emotions, like values of nature. Like you were working on biodiversity. So clearly, you have a side of you, that's a value about nature and the larger natural system. And then we have our altruistic values, right? About other people and people that we want to help and protect. And then we have our own egocentric personal values about our own self. And I think that's what happens with having a child: it bumps us. If people already have eco values and altruistic values, they're kind of okay with that. But as soon as you want to have a child, it moves you into this very personal set of values and yourself and your ego, which can be problematic, because then it's like, is this for me? Is this for the world?
I mean it's hard to even describe, but I think you know where I'm going, right? Because if I'm selfless, what does it mean to be self full in terms of having a child and of course, that primal urge. You know, the primal urge that people feel to create a child is so - comes out of us.
Wray: Wow. Yeah.
Doherty: So, you know, we're moving from these big values with things outside of ourselves to things inside. So it's kind of neat.
Britt Wray: I love that way of framing it. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right.
Pihkala: Do you want to share, Britt, some of the happenings since the child has been born? You can of course, choose the level of intimacy you want to engage with here. But especially regarding, you know, eco emotions and climate emotions. It's been, again, a sort of winding road with fluctuations. We have two children, so we know that there's so many things happening that there's sort of natural fluctuations happening also. So [do] you want to share something about?
Wray: Yeah. I mean, going through the pregnancy and birth while doing the work that I do and being keenly embedded in research around eco anxiety and other mental health impacts of climate change, gave me some insights into things I think we're going to need to be aware of for women going forward. And for young people becoming parents — well, for people becoming parents, who are, you know, awake to their ecological identity and feeling these pressures, but deciding to do it anyway.
When you choose a path at the fork in the road, and decide, if you had been reproductively ambivalent or anxious due to what's going on, okay, I'm up for it. That doesn't mean that all the feelings just naturally weigh away, you know. You're gonna have to learn how to toggle between your awareness that there's a big part of you that still thinks this is a bad idea. And the part of you that is convicted and resolved. And so that was apparent to me in the disaster prone summer of 2021 when I'm in my third trimester. And I've just gone home to Toronto to be able to be around family after not being there for two years in the pandemic. And at this moment of bringing more family into the world and, you know, wanting to be with them. And it was this time of horrific flooding. In many cities around the world, there were unbelievable wildfires.
Even Toronto, my hometown, which is never ever affected by wildfire smoke ever had become affected by wildfire smoke that blew in from the east. Given all the, you know, West Coast wildfires, but also there were some in Northwestern Ontario. And had given the sky this choked gray color such that the recommendations were that pregnant women shouldn't go outside.
I mean, it was unthinkable for someone from Toronto. And there I am, inside, not going out for several days in a row fielding questions from journalists who are reading my newspaper and freaking out because the heat dome just happened. And they're asking me questions like, how do you deal with a pervading sense of existential dread? How should my readers understand how to cope with feelings that it's too late? I've looked at my children this morning in the eyes, and I've realized that they might not get to live out a full human lifetime that I previously expected for them. You know, these kinds of questions were coming in on a daily basis.
I'm pregnant. I'm stuck inside. And I can feel my baby playing the drums on my insides. And all of that going on was just, wow. This is not how I pictured this going. Interesting. Okay, that's what it means to be working in this space. And, you know, fielding what's going on in the world around you. Especially because people - there are these spikes I noticed in the summers when all the disasters start happening. And a lot of people who previously feel like privileged and protected and away from it all get awoken to their existential terror. And start asking understandable questions. And they're coming from a very reactive place. And there's that terror that sets in.
And to just be — and I remember, I was going, I was at, I was in the maternal fetal clinic talking with the doctor. The news is on. There's like wildfires all over the news. I'm talking with the OBGYN. He's looking at me being like, man, I just feel so bad for all the kids that are being born today. And they're gonna have to live with this. I mean, well, isn't it just, it's awful, those poor kids. So by the way, let's take your latest test number on this thing we're here to run on. It was just like from every angle all the time, so strange.
So anyway, that's something that I just saw unfolding. And I think it's interesting for anyone else who was in my position, thinking about pregnancy that there, you know, it might be a bit rocky. And then, you know, our son actually had a very serious lung problem when he was born. And it sent us to the intensive care. And then the NICU is just such a stressful place. And so then it jolted me into oh my gosh, other existential feelings about the preciousness of life and this primal urge to make sure that our baby is okay. And going through that was incredible as well. And then learning how to have a healthy baby at home afterwards. It's just been, you know, hugely worldwidening in all the ways.
So, yeah. I don't know. This stuff just touches the marrow. And coming back from maternity leave to then go back into eco anxiety research, it all just feels interconnected on this deeper level about why we're here. What this is about. It's about protecting life, right? It's about trying to create joyful experiences for other people and yourself along the way and reduce suffering. And it's not easy work. And yeah, so I think that there's a lot of interesting research to be done around the mental health of women in the perinatal period that I know some people are doing. As it relates to climate anxiety.
Pihkala: Yeah, it's like literally inside you. And all these conditions that you so vividly described, sort of, you can't separate yourself from it. So that's very moving. And I think you're raising up a very crucial issue, which really needs to be talked about more. And “post traumatic growth” is one framework to use for these kinds of processes. Or the Robert J. Lifton's “Survivor Mission.” I know we, all three of us, have been engaging with Lifton. I think that's what you have the chance to do now. So you have survived this long and winding road. And as you described, even though for persons of much privilege, as we all three are, it may still not be easy. Far from it.
But coming to the last five minutes of our limited time, we'd be really interested to talk with you about the coping mechanisms a bit more. And your book highlights the role of meaning or even purpose as its existential thinking in this time. But would you like to share a bit more about what kind of things actually help you in this process?
Wray: Yeah. In terms of things that I can do alone that really helped me. That includes meditation, mindfulness practices, things to soothe the nervous system that I've learned from reading, or therapists telling me about it, as I've interviewed them for my book, for example. I certainly find the social connection piece to be the most important in terms of being able to find others to talk about the rawest emotions that you need to share. And making sure that there are mirrors in terms of those people legitimizing and validating what you're going through. And being able to bear it with you. It just relieves so much.
And so, you know, I've done groups like the Good Grief Network. And I have a really savvy, climate aware therapist, which is fantastic. And, you know, those kinds of places, because even my best friends and people I love who know me so well, they don't necessarily feel this. You know, they're not necessarily looking into the abyss of the climate crisis professionally all day.
And that's another thing, you know, that it rains down on everyone, potentially, but especially on those who are professionally committed to paying attention to this, right? Those formats have been able to really help me in times of, you know, when the distress becomes more significant.
Some other fun things have been like listening to podcasts, or audio books about the cosmos. About space. About the evolution of the universe. Because it points out how insignificant this moment is. And it's just a blip in this much larger mystery that we are, you know, rocketing through space on this planet. And it's just fascinating to be able to hold the tensions between all that we don't know and then all that we do know about this moment. And that can be very easing and calming, I find.
But then it's just, it's the simple stuff. It's hanging out with my family and having fun with my best friends and hugging my baby. And, you know, all those things that are restorative. But yeah, I think when I've been at my worst, the thing that has really rescued me has been meditation. Yeah.
Thomas Doherty: Yeah, this is great. This is really great. I think we can go a little longer today, maybe another, you know, five or 10 minutes just because we're in a really rich vein. And I do want to just bring in the listeners a little bit. People that have been listening along.
And it is true. I mean, these disasters are no longer distant right? In the past climate change, for most people anyway, around the planet. It was a distant issue. And, you know, these disasters are landing where we live. So we have these kinds of climate singularities where the disaster and the emotional - all the impacts are happening simultaneously. It's like a, you know, a mortar round that's landing close to you in, if you're living in Ukraine. You know, it's this is coming right at me now. And that itself is a rite of passage that people are going through around the globe. They're living through these disasters or the smoke. So it's just important too that we're all going to feel these things. I've felt it, you know, here in the Northwest. Panu's, you know, everybody around the world that's listening is going to be going through.
We're all having a rite of passage around this stuff. And the disasters are going to come and we'll be in disaster mode. And then we'll toggle back. And have a moment where we can contemplate the cosmos. And, you know, that expanding and contracting ability is really part of the long term, you know. We can't get into it here, but even the idea of perinatal women and just, you know, specialty and climate pregnancy, is a, there must be people starting to work on this substance. That that's a mission. That's one mission, you know, survivors.
Wray: There's a lab at Columbia [University] doing that now.
Thomas Doherty: Yeah. And that's a sign of the times.
Wray: It is.
Doherty: Which is the other piece too. We all have to realize there's so many gifted people doing great work all around the world. You know, there's a lot of people working on this kind of stuff. We're not alone at all, you know. And I think that's probably, at least for me, that's been an upside of this work is I meet all kinds of great people. Like, you know, like yourself, Britt and like Panu.
And Britt, I'm sure you've been in, you know, maybe toward the end, you know, of our talk, you know, in terms of our coping, there are moments, those moments of inspiration too. When we surrender into the struggle. And get into it. And go to the frontline. Or whatever our frontline is, we start to meet comrades, you know, and get inspired and surprised. We didn't even realize people were doing things that are really great.
Wray: Yeah.
Doherty: I imagine you must have been inspired and surprised by some people you've come across in your, in your newsletter, and in your, in your research.
Wray: Oh, my gosh. So many. So many. Yeah. Definitely. The ways that people are making sense of showing up at this time. And making sense of coping with the intensity of their emotions. If that's their way in. Yeah. I've been very surprised.
And it's, you know, there's a lot of attention put on young people right now. Around how exposed they are to the distress. And how it's impairing their ability to just get through the day. But there's a lot of older people who feel unheard. And who have been grieving for a long time, as they, you know, shake their head in disgust about the state of the planet that's being handed on to younger generations. And, you know, there's a lot of wisdom locked up in those elders who are awake and aware and emotionally engaged. But also strengthened through their years, you know. So I find that sometimes I get surprised by them the most.
Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, also. And with Thomas and guests, we've often been talking about the difficulties socially that this time and these very difficult emotions sometimes get us into. And the danger if there are sort of idealized responses in a sort of binary way. That there's only one good way and one bad way to do things in these times. And sometimes that gets into people's way, also. Between the generations I think.
Thomas Doherty: You know, climate cosmopolitanism. This idea that there's a lot of languages to learn. A lot of people to know. A lot of climate change cultures to dip into. And so I think Britt, you've - that's part of your journey too. You've become a climate world traveler, so to speak. Or climate cosmopolitan person. Talking to all these different people and tapping into all these different subcultures.
Wray: Thomas, you are great at creating new terminology on the fly. You've given us climate hostages.
Doherty: Yeah. Yeah.
Wray: Which was so visual and apt. Now climate cosmopolitan, I love them. Yeah.
Doherty: Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's about new languages. New words. And new and old feelings. Right? Some of these feelings are as old as time.
Wray: Right.
Doherty: That we're having. And then that comes back to the whole privilege piece. Right? You know, people have been —
Wray: Yeah.
Doherty: This is not the first time people have struggled about whether they should have a child or not. Obviously, in the history of humanity.
Wray: Goodness no.
Doherty: And so this is our particular version.
Wray: You know, and on that point, Panu, in one of our early interviews, you clarified for me so well, what was going on. When you said, you know, waking up to the climate and ecological crisis is particularly hard for citizens of industrialized nations who are living middle class lifestyles, because it makes them realize that the world is a far more tragic and fragile place than they were raised to believe it was.
And that fragmenting can become so severe that it's an internal shattering. And there is a lack of resilience based on one's experience to date that can come with that when one is super privileged and protected for dealing for confronting those kinds of existential feelings that are terrifying. Which is very different if you're coming from, you know, a post traumatic growth scenario where you faced serious adversity before. And it was just one of those things that really landed.
And, yes. You know, and this is also why we're noticing this particular issue being taken up frequently by, you know, middle class people. And it's obviously not the story for so many marginalized and oppressed communities. It's one more layer of difficulty on top of so much trauma. And so the ways in which language is wielded around why it's important will look different. And I've shared the - you're quoted in the intro to my book talking about this. And I think it's one of those lucid explanations that helps people see what's going on. And depending on who they are, why they are reacting or not reacting in certain ways. So. So yeah,
Pihkala: Thanks for that, Britt. Very good to hear. And this existential grief researcher Thomas Attig, has this phrasing of “relearning the world”. And that's something [that] I think applies for middle class. Or the privileged people like my background, also. So that's also been related to my personal history. And in your newsletter Gen Dread. There's a fabulous website. I warmly recommend people to go there and join. You've given very good space for a wide variety of views. And you've certainly had an aim and emphasis on giving voices to people who are not so often interviewed in these matters. And paying attention to intersectional justice issues. So that's one part of your work that I very much appreciate. And I think it's very brave - this process that you've been able to walk through.
And now in the beginning of May, [the] Generation Dread book is coming out in print and in electronic file formats. I'm very much looking forward to reading it. And as I briefly mentioned, it has this finding purpose in the subtitle. Or extended time is also sort of running. But I was wondering, would you like, at the end of the session, [to] briefly say something about the forthcoming book? I know this is a terrible question to ask you to speak briefly of such a wide ranging book.
Wray: Thanks, Panu. Yeah, well, of course, it deals with eco anxiety from, you know, this kind of intersectional critical perspective that you've just touched on. Looking at the roles of, you know, identity and privilege and experience with adversity and climate justice topics and things like that. But also, what on a deeper, I don't use the word spiritual, but we can refer to it here. What might be going on in terms of how powerful cultures that have driven, exacerbated the climate crisis have ended up with this kind of dominating framework. And how we can try and shift as individuals within this overwhelming situation, to a mode of partnership. You know, with others and with the natural world by understanding where the severance from connectedness could have come from.
And also looking at topics like the future of mental health care. And what's required, given the scope of psychic damage that this is causing. And that we can rightfully expect to increase in enormous ways. And how we can, you know, understand what goes on psychosocially in disaster settings. Not just when we're anxious about what we're understanding and absorbing from scientific reports. And what, you know, there's coping tips and processing for individuals and collectives. But it's also interwoven with a vulnerable memoir style. You know, exploration of what's gone on inside me as I've looked around the world and tried to understand what's going on inside other people. So, yeah, I hope that it helps people feel less alone. And more connected. And understood. And also resourced for ways of going forward with these climate anxious times.
Doherty: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to the book. And I recommend the Gen Dread site and the newsletter. I mean, you know, this idea of we're all. I mean, we're either relearning the world or we're just learning the world. We - that's the thing. We think we know the world. As I get older, I realized I, what I thought I know, I don't really I didn't really know in this limited understanding we have. So all of the people listening, we're all learning the world together. And we think we know, you know, if we're marginalized and really oppressed, you know, we think that's the world. But that's not the only world out there. And if we're privileged, we think that's the only world and that's not the only world out there, either. You know, and so we're learning together here. So. Gosh, we're all in this together in some ways, even though we have these different stories. So thanks again.
Wray: Thank you. Yeah, it was great to chat with you both. And I'm excited that you're doing this podcast, it's an important offering.
Doherty: And it takes time. You know, it takes time. All these connections have unfolded over some years. So listeners also realize it takes time for this to happen, so -
Wray: It really does.
Doherty: It doesn't happen all right away.
Wray: No. Yep, you need space and time. And actually, I think, Panu, you also chatted with me once about this. And pointed out how, in that sense, it is a justice issue too. To be able to cope well with eco anxiety you need resources. Like time and space. So that you're not just barreling through life trying to make it through your disasters. And make it to your three jobs. But you can actually process this and reorient yourself towards, you know, do the inner activism part. And connect it to external activism. And feel better about it all. So yeah, it's a doozy in that sense. It's those kinds of justice issues that pop up all the way down.
Pihkala: Yeah, I think you're absolutely absolutely right. And I greatly enjoyed once again, talking with you, Britt. And now the triad. And this has been very fascinating. And lots of topics that I definitely [would] like to talk more about. Like the role of spirituality. Which is close to me. And well, you know, the existential frameworks. Whether we talk about looking at the starry sky at night or the deeper issues there's plenty to discuss so I'm hoping for some chances in the future. But now, warm thanks for finding the time to come to talk.
Wray: Thank you. And I'll close my mouth so that we don't keep going.
Doherty: Yeah. It's great. But, you know, listeners, this is what this podcast is about. Is giving an entree into people who work on this. And spend a lot of time on this. And so you can see what it's like in our world. We're all in this together. And we're all human. So yes, this is Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. At our website, we have show notes. And descriptions of these episodes and more details. And various links of different books and authors and ideas that we referenced in these episodes. So please do check out the website as well. And think about sharing our message and supporting us. And all of us, all listeners and all of you too, have a good rest of your days and we'll talk to you next time.
Wray: Bye.
Doherty: Take care.
Pihkala: Take care.
