Season 1, Episode 8: Climate Change, Children and a Better World with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser

Apr 15

Season 1, Episode 8 | Climate Change, Children and a Better World with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser

Climate Change and Happiness Episode 8 begins a two-part series focusing on childbearing decisions in this time of increasing climate disruption. Panu and Thomas are joined by feminist scholar Jade Sasser whose research investigates the impacts of climate change, racial injustice, and other existential threats on human reproductive decisions. Together they explore how climate change is interpreted by potential parents and grandparents of different generations and cultures. They discover how, in Jade’s words, children “symbolize and represent so many hopes, dreams, fears, anxieties, desires to make the world better.” Thomas notes how deciding whether or not to have a child is one of the most consequential decisions an adult will make in their life. He and Panu reflect on their own parenting and explore some of the complex and blended emotions that arise for people about this topic. Jade reminds us that anxiety and fear grow the more that we feel isolated, while connection with others grows the potential for hope. Along the way, Jade counters some simplistic notions about population as a driver of climate change. Join us for this thought provoking reflection.

And, look forward to Episode 9 when Panu and Thomas have a conversation with science journalist and researcher Britt Wray who reports on how her own parenting decision-making inspired her popular Gen Dread newsletter and upcoming book.

Transcript

Season 1, Episode 8: Children, Climate Change and a “Better World” with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast: The show for people around the globe who are thinking deeply about the personal side of climate change, particularly their emotions. What they're feeling in their body and, you know, their feelings. How they're describing their emotions. And we go in a lot of directions here. So listeners, welcome. Take a breath. Be with us for a little bit.

Panu and I are really honored to have Jade Sasser with us today. And she can talk about herself during our conversation. But she's coming from California at UC Riverside and does some interesting research and practice on Gender and Sexuality Studies. And we're going to see where we go here. We had a little pre-talk, and we went in a lot of really fascinating directions. So, let's just keep our breath going and realize we might go into some deep topics today. But we're also going to be thinking about what it feels like for all of us. So Panu, do you want to get us going?

Pihkala: Yes, and warmly welcome Jade. And I'm very glad that you found the time to join us. And we met earlier this autumn, in relation to this Lancet Planetary Health study on children and youth[‘s] climate emotions and beliefs. You generously commented on that in a webinar and that turned into a very interesting discussion. I know that you've been working with related issues for several years. So how do you feel about this at the moment? What's on the top of your mind?

Jade Sasser: Well, what's on the top of my mind, it's really interesting. I'm just returning home from a week in Louisiana with family to celebrate Thanksgiving. And I have a three-year-old cousin, who I spent the week with. And it was really interesting. I started thinking a lot about the interviews that I've done with people who talk about whether they want to have children in the face of climate change. How they feel about the ethics and the morals of that. And I've been steeped in those conversations for so long. But spending the week with this three-year-old child was such a joy. And I have to say, I spent the week not thinking about climate change at all. And it was wonderful. So then coming back to this discussion, it, I think, is complicating my thinking about the possible range of emotions that one can experience, while also grappling with the deep challenges of climate change.

Pihkala: Thank you for sharing that. That's very interesting. Good to hear that you had such good moments. Maybe the three year old, and I'm personally a father of two sons. They are now six and eight. So I strongly resonate with this, you know, shifts in attention and mode, I should say, you know. I often work with some quite difficult climate emotions during the work day. And then I go out to play with the boys and so on. So it's an interesting mix. And that's something related to the little bit provocative title of our podcast. Climate Change and Happiness. The sort of exploration [of] how could joy be possible amidst the very awful crisis that we are living in. And, of course, different backgrounds and social factors and justice issues have a profound impact on how we experience the crisis. And also on the emotions and feelings. And I know that this is something that you've been thinking about seriously for a long time.

Sasser: I have and the thing that's been interesting for me is I don't have children. And I primarily interview people who don't have children. And so, for me, the space that I inhabit most of the time when it comes to this set of issues is the space of ideas. Because this is not a lived experience where I'm grappling with how I feel about parenting. How I feel about being a parent or becoming a parent myself. Those are not lived experiences for me. I talk to other people for whom those are lived experiences. But there's a little bit of a remove most of the time because for me, again, these are ideas.

However, I do want to say, I do a lot of interviews. And increasingly, I'm doing interviews with people who do have children. And who are really grappling with the feelings that come up for them around being parents when they're faced with the things that many of us are faced with. Heat waves. We had months-long heat waves here in the United States over the course of this summer and into the fall. Here in Southern California, where I live, we deal with wildfire. Wildfire has always been something that has been common to this region, but the wildfire season is getting longer and longer and longer. And for example, today, it's December 1, our temperature will reach 80 degrees [F], which is very hot even for Southern California for December.

I returned from Louisiana to find my house smelling of wildfire smoke because there was a fire that broke out the day that I left. And it was put out and then reignited while I was across the country. So I was checking my phone to see what was going to happen with this fire and how it would impact my home. My home was fine, but really it smelled like smoke. And it still smells of smoke a little bit. And so these are the kinds of issues that people who I am interviewing are grappling with. And they're saying and really thinking through how should I feel about having a child knowing that climate change was real? I knew that before I had a child. What are the ethical and moral concerns about bringing a kid into a planet that we know is going through all of these changes? Should I feel guilty about that? Should I feel responsible for doing something that may not be good for the planet? Those kinds of issues and questions come up all the time.

Particularly the mothers who I interview feel an added layer of guilt. I think because just in our society women's behaviors and decisions as mothers are just extra scrutinized. So motherly guilt is very, very common. Less commonly, but still really important, I would have to say is those parents that I talked to who say that their children make them feel much more motivated to actually do something about climate change. That they feel motivated to be advocates. To help educate other people to make changes in their own day to day lives. To not, you know, kind of sit back and wait for someone else to solve the problem. For them, their children are a motivator to actually create the world in the future that they would like to live in. And so I hear a really broad range of emotional experiences from the people that I interview. From grief, sadness, guilt, to intense motivation, and a desire to make a future in which their children won't come home to [a] house smelling of wildfire smoke [laughs].

Doherty: Yeah, that's really well said Jade. I mean, I think you kind of encapsulated a lot of what this podcast is about just now. All the nuances of feelings, you know. We talk about feeling different kinds of things, that, you know, nuances. Or what researchers call granularity. Like different kinds of feelings and just emotional depth, you know. And I know Panu is big on this idea too of these mixed emotions. You know, where we have tragic realism or tragic hope. Or, you know, we have this empowerment or even standing our ground and making a statement. And even a kind of a resistance. You know, joy is an act of resistance.

And so, I just wanted to just for the listeners, just really take this in because Jade has really laid out a whole palette of things that many listeners are feeling. I know you are. I know you're feeling it. I[‘ve] felt these things. And so we have a choice. We can build our capacity, I guess I would say, to feel these different things and then eventually make our decisions. And, you know, in therapy, we talk about, you know, working from our values. Like understanding our values and making actions based on our values.

And so, but I just want to just, again, put your hand on your chest and take a breath, because there's a lot. There is the smoke. I mean, in the Pacific Northwest, I've felt this. I've dealt with the same things: the temperature and the weather changes and the smoke. And all this sort of stuff. And so it's all happening. And the danger is people get out of their depth emotionally. And they get really frantic and really paralyzed. And so we want to keep breathing and keep chatting about this some more.

Sasser: Well, if I can say one thing. What I find, and this is my personal experience, but I've also talked this through with others and find that it's a shared experience. When I'm left to my own devices. Meaning when I'm left to my own emotional experiences and I don't communicate and share them with others. Or hear how others are feeling, the things that I tend to feel most are fear and worry and anxiety. And I think that partly stems from a perception that I'm the only person who feels this way. Or that I can't share this with others because they won't resonate. Or won't understand. Or that they'll minimize my concerns.

And what I find in my own experience, and in the experiences of people who I interview, is that there's a certain amount of relief that comes with being able to talk about these emotions. And to understand that many other people feel them too. That we are not isolated in grappling with a whole range of emotions. For me, the anxiety and fear grow the more that I feel isolated. But the opposite grows the potential for hope. The potential for optimism. Definitely the motivation. That grows the more I feel connected to other people who I know I can understand and resonate with what I'm experiencing, too.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing that Jade. That's very profound, I think. And I've been just revising a big academic article on climate emotions and feelings. And I've been searching [for] a word for this feeling of togetherness and belonging and feeling connected to others. And I strongly resonate with what you said about that. And we've seen it in Finland too. This sort of isolation and loneliness. And sometimes people feel that they are some kind, in some way, weak, or unsuccessful if they feel the pressure. And then just, you know, basic validation by peer support can be really empowering for people.

Sasser: I think it's so important. In part because I, when I talk about my research sometimes, particularly with members of older generations, I do get the resistance. I do hear people saying: what? There are people who are thinking about not having children because of climate change? That sounds ridiculous. What - they [laughs] young people will look for any excuse to not want to have children. Or young people are too emotional anyway, for, you know.

These kinds of — I've heard these kinds of responses that really don't take climate emotions seriously. And I find myself having to really push back against that. Because I think that there is a generational difference in the perception of the immediacy and importance of climate change. As well as the perception of how radically it will alter the earth and, you know, our future experience on it. And acknowledging, resonating with and accepting that people's emotional experiences are true and valid, I think, is really important.

But the thing that does get older people when I put it forward. And it gets them in a very different way. It got my family this past week. We started having very different conversations after I said this. Is the point of well, there are people in older generations who would like to have grandchildren or great grandchildren. And they very well might not [have grand or great grandchildren] because of these climate emotions and the decisions that young people are making as a result of them.

And if there is no other motivator or driver on a personal emotional level, then please let your desire to have the family that you want that includes grandchildren or beyond. Let that help you understand this in a different way. In a different emotional way. And as a result of having that conversation, one of my aunts is thinking about getting in an electric vehicle. And changing how she consumes energy on a day to day basis, because she doesn't want my nieces to decide that they never want to have children because of climate change. And it's a simple thing, but I think that personal, heart-centered experience, for some, can bring the issues home in a way that nothing else can.

Doherty: Yeah. That's really neat. And it's really timely with, you know, this recent Thanksgiving holiday and people seeing their families. Yeah. And then universality is one of the terms in therapy about this idea that I realize I'm not the only person that has these issues. So we, in terms of validation, we also — it's universal. There is a sense of universality with this kind of stuff. And then Panu, you've talked about communitas, you know. This joint feelings of togetherness and things like that. That when we do open to this stuff, and I think, you know, some of the older folks, they also have different values at play.

I know some people. Well, I mean, we all know that, you know, questions about having children are not new. People have had questions about having children perennially for any number of reasons. People during the Cold War and a threat of nuclear war. There [were] questions about having children, I'm sure. I mean, it's before my lived experience, but I'm sure during World War II and enduring other cataclysms in the world people have. During the Depression, you know, people have had really valid questions about whether it's a good idea to bring children into the world. So I do think we forget that this is a human question. And I just wonder about some of these, you know, [if] older generations had other values at play. Family. Continuity. Whatever.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. That's very true. And, of course, in many countries, the studies and surveys that have been done show that among the children and youth and young adults, there is more concern and awareness, on average, than with several other age groups. That, of course, doesn't mean that they are the only age group who care deeply.

And I know many people who, when they become grandparents, then their climate anxiety goes up. Because the issues become so real with the newborn. So it seems that both, you know, families who get the children, if they do and then the grandparents. So there are certain situations which then really bring the issue close to them. And because children are such a key thing for the human tribe, so to say, it evokes so much emotion. And so many hopes and fears involved in relation to children. So, on one hand, it's sort of logical, how difficult it is, for many people to think seriously about such a situation where a large number of young people are very seriously considering not having children because the crisis is so high. That just seems to be too much for many people.

Sasser: Yes. I would also say that childrens symbolize a range of different things. So they symbolize the future. In many instances, they symbolize hopes and possibilities for what kinds of futures we would like to have. They symbolize leaving a legacy. Some part of yourself in a future that will survive after you are no longer here. They also represent, in many ways, our values. What we find really important and what we're willing to take action on.

So for some of those who I have spoken to and interviewed, having children, again, it really changed their motivation around taking specific actions. Whether it's to consume resources differently. To vote differently. To consider, you know, political candidate's climate positions in how they vote. It, for some, changes the conversations that they have with other parents. And they talk about environmental issues and climate issues in ways that they would not otherwise. For some, it's the opposite. They really sort of pull in. And kind of gather their emotional energy. And really kind of huddle together with family and engage less with these bigger, broader issues out in the world.

To the point earlier that Thomas made about how people have grappled with these questions around whether, when, why, how to have children, that is a long standing set of concerns. It has affected different generations throughout history in different places for different reasons. So climate change is a threat to basic existence. It's an existential threat. It's not the first or only existential threat. Wars, world wars are certainly existential threats as well. A global pandemic is an existential threat, as we know. And then experiences that we've had here in the United States. Racism. Racial violence. These kinds of things are also existential threats for particular groups. So groups have grappled differently in different ways across time with this set of questions.

I do know that for communities of color in the US. Particularly for African American communities. It has become much more important to have children. And to have families. And to leave a legacy. Because family and children represent the stability of a safe community that will protect you. Emotionally and socially from the harms that would come from outside of that community. So having children becomes more important in the face of existential threat. And being able to leave a positive legacy that will survive beyond you. And in part that's shaped by a religiously impacted set of values among African Americans. Which says that we have to make sure that the world is better in the future for our children and grandchildren than what it was for us. So having children. Wanting children becomes a motivation to work toward creating that better world.

But, you know, that also has shaped inside of these broader concerns. My parents were worried about nuclear war when they were considering having me and my sister. They're children of the 50s. They grew up doing bomb drills in school. When they were in their teens, they were involved in protests, you know, against the war in Vietnam. My father's older brother, and my mother's younger brother were both drafted and they both fought in Vietnam. And their families were concerned about whether they would come back alive or not. And then, of course, you know, heading into the 70s, when I was born, this was a period of Cold War anxieties. My mother tells stories of watching the news at different times wondering if there would be a nuclear bomb dropped and thinking: should I have a baby at a time like this? [laughs] And those are very human concerns. Of course, she was concerned. I would be worried if she wasn't concerned about something like that.

So children really do symbolize and represent so many hopes, dreams, fears, anxieties, desires to make the world better. And then also real concerns about what kind of responsibility one should take toward an innocent person who didn't choose to be here. You're choosing for them to come here. Knowing what you know about conditions that are in the world right now. So it's very complicated. Very, very complicated. And the people who I speak to in interviews are grappling with all of these very complicated emotions. For many of them underneath it all there is a desire to have children. But there are really strong questions about whether that's possible from a moral, ethical, environmental, emotional, and financial position.

Pihkala: Yeah, I love the way that you complicate these issues. I think it's absolutely crucial. And reminds me of also, Matthew Schneider-Mayerson's work. Who I guess you know. And very many different dynamics that people have in relation to these climate crisis and reproduction issues. And also then thanks for sharing insights related to people of color and the situation. I've been struck by many of the studies related to climate emotions in people of color communities in the US, for example.

And that links to my work.

I've been trying to emphasize that we shouldn't do binary, you know, classifications between positive and negative as regards emotions. Because, for example, moral outrage is a very important and understandable climate emotion, also. So we need the different perspectives. And thanks for broadening.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, we have a few more minutes. This has really, really been right on point, I think, for our podcast. And I think listeners have been really. I think certain people are really - hopefully, you're feeling spoken to. And recognized out there. I mean, one of our notes for our show is, you know, having a child is one of the most intimate and consequential decisions an adult makes in their life course. Right. So it is. We are talking about some of the biggest decisions that people will make in their lives.

And this is all personal. It's personal to me. It's personal to Panu. It's personal to Jade. And to everyone out there. You know, personally, I remember a time when I didn't want to have children. I have one daughter, age 14. And I remember I didn't want to have children in my 20s. And I remember talking to one of my mentors about this when I was in my 20s. And him encouraging me to think more about it at the time. And I remember getting married. And, you know, deciding to have a child with my wife. My wife ended up dying of breast cancer about four years ago. Chelsea. And we were - she had wanted to have a second child. And I didn't want to have a second child for a number of reasons. And, you know, she ended up - the cancer made the decision for us, unfortunately. So that's an open, you know, that's a wound that I have in my life about what would have happened. You know, what would have happened otherwise.

But, and I only share that not not to talk about myself, but just to say, this is real stuff for people. You know, it's real stuff for the listeners. And so there are, you know, expression and validation is the first step. Expressing the feelings and just having them be heard and validated. Your decisions are going to go in any number of directions, as we've talked about. And, you know, one title for this might be children and a better world, you know. And like what does a better world mean? And that is different for different people. And children's, the role of children in a better world means different things to the listeners. But yeah, so it's a real thing. Yeah and we've got a couple of minutes on are you sitting on any ideas? Jade?

Pihkala: Yeah. This is such a rich topic. That there's so many possibilities. And thanks so much for sharing that. We've, of course, spoken about that. But I think it's very important for the listeners also, to hear that. Regarding the personal side, we'll put a link to the podcast website of a video conversation between you, Jade, and Britt Wray. Climate emotion research about these perspectives. And there's luckily now good material emerging. This. Your studies and Matthew Schneider-Mayerson's stuff, and so on. So the situation is very different than it was only five years ago. So that's one sort of sign of hope in this. That we are getting more material. And that hopefully avoids people from making overly binary interpretations of that.

Sasser: Absolutely. I think that's really important. Binary kinds of ideas or perspectives just don't capture the complexity and nuance of real life. And I'm finding it is very possible to feel simultaneously motivated, hopeful, anxious, worried, confused, and many other emotions as well. And with the issue of parenting, there is no way to know ahead of time whether you are making the right decision or not. But there is no right or wrong decision universally. Those decisions as you said, Thomas, they are very personal. They are lived in the context of your own life. Your own family. Your own community. What is right for one person may not be right for another person.

But I do want to leave with this point. There are some people in the environmental and climate community who want to harness the discussion of children through the lens of population. And who want to say, well, none of us should have children because the Earth is overpopulated. And, you know, population growth is the driver of climate change. And when we actually get into the nuances of that, the number of people on the planet is not a driver of climate change. The drivers of climate change, as we know, are about the extraction and consumption of particular kinds of resources. And people consume those resources very differently depending on who they are. Where they are in the world. How many resources they have, et cetera. So simply saying no one should have children for environmental reasons is - it's not. It's a false solution that some like to put forward. And it just doesn't map on to what's actually happening in the world.

Just as one example, the fertility rate in the United States has been going down for 80 years, at the exact same time that our greenhouse gas emissions have been skyrocketing. So my hope is that people can sort of steer away from that kind of simplistic conversation around population and really focus on the complexity and nuance.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: Thanks for bringing that up. And there's such a rich material here that we would need a sequel for the conversation session, also in this.

Doherty: Yeah, we'll put in our show notes. We have a nice link to an article by environmental journalist David Roberts about how he thinks as a journalist [and] he does not talk about, write about overpopulation for some of the more, you know, complex reasons Jade was talking about. So that is a topic we can follow up on. This has been a really beautiful conversation. And I really appreciate Jade your time today. And we're gonna wrap it up and get into our days. You know, we're humans and we have our lives. And Panu what are you up to after our talk?

Pihkala: Well, again, my six year old is playing with his friends. So they are gonna come in [in] something like 10 minutes. And this links with something that Jade was talking about. So regardless of what one's own position is, at least we have the possibility to rejoice of the children that are in the world. So that's the strong source of positivity for me, at least. Thank you very much, Jade.

Sasser: Thank you. I've really enjoyed it too. And after this, I'm a college professor. So I'll be spending my day reading articles. Lesson planning. And getting ready for tomorrow's online classes.

Doherty: Yeah, well, good luck with that. And online classes is a whole 'nother episode. And yeah, and I'm gonna meet, I'm going to do my clinical work. And I'm actually doing some walking sessions outdoors today with some clients in a park. And I see some blue sky out there. And we're lucky that I tend to get lucky on some of the one day of the week that there's some clear skies is the my walking therapy day, so I'm really happy about that.

Well, listen, both of you take care of yourselves. I look forward to maybe some more conversations in the future. And listeners out there, please keep in touch with us. Climatechangeandhappiness.com. We'll be having more of these conversations and I hope you can join us. Take care everyone

Pihkala: Take care.

Climate Change And Happiness https://climatechangeandhappiness.com

Season 1, Episode 8: Climate Change, Children and a Better World with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser

Season 1, Episode 8 | Climate Change, Children and a Better World with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser

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