Season 1, Episode 10: In Praise of Cynicism

May 13

Season 1, Episode 10 | In Praise of Cynicism

Dark times for dark emotions. In this episode recorded near the end of 2021, Thomas and Panu open the door to the feeling of cynicism and its “friends” apathy, shame, melancholia, “learned helplessness” disillusionment, and misanthropy [dislike of humankind]. They discuss how to be compassionate to ourselves and accept these feelings as inevitable reactions during our current political and environmental crises. They explore cynicism as a way of being realistic about the world, as a protective feeling or style, and from a philosophical perspective as living well in difficult situations, eschewing the trappings of the world and seeking one’s own path of virtue. Thomas discusses how his misanthropy tends to be directed at unjust human systems rather than human nature. Panu highlights a number of thinkers and artists that offer ways to understand and work through our doubt and despair. Is it possible to discover a “post-cynical” position in our deep adaptation to climate change? What is the role of self-sacrifice as an option? Listen in and see what you feel and think.

Note: This episode is a lead-in to a frank discussion of the actions of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel coming in Episode 11.

Transcript

Season 1, Episode 10: In Praise of Cynicism

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change, and the personal side of climate change: Emotional responses and feelings and how this lands in our hearts and in our bodies as well as in our minds. And for Panu and I, we're recording this [episode] toward the solstice time of the year [2021] in the northern hemisphere. Although you might be listening to this later.

Anyway, Panu, … this is an episode I'm looking forward to. This cynicism episode. “In praise of cynicism.” I tend to joke that I am a cynical person. And I know many of our listeners might consider themselves to be cynical in various ways too. And so I wanted to surface this in our discussion about climate feelings and climate emotions. So I want to open the door and have cynicism and all its cousins and friends — apathy and misanthropy — We're going to have a party with these feelings. And I'm gonna bring them in and talk about them a little bit. In a compassionate and in a healthy way, I think. So, I know you and I've chatted a little bit, but where does this go for you Panu?

Pihkala: Yeah. That's very suitable for the season. You know, [a] dark feelings special episode. It's been very dark physically in Helsinki, during the last week. So [I’m] really looking forward for the solstice. And this ties in with my work, also. In the Finnish book about eco emotions that I published in 2019, I have a section about these sorts of dark and malevolent feelings. And that's something that I very rarely talk about because it's such a topic that usually nobody wants to really talk about it. So this gives an opportunity for that.

Doherty: Yeah. And listeners can help with different words in languages outside of English for cynicism and misanthropy. Because I know, there are concepts in many cultures. All of my searching seemed to lead me back to the Greeks, of course. The Greeks and the Romans. You know, so we've got cynicism as a general belief that people are selfish and dishonest. You know, is a common way of thinking about it. And, you know, I think sometimes that's being realistic about the world. And being open to this as [an] expectable response given how things are going in the world.

But of course, there's that deeper philosophical piece about living well in difficult situations. And eschewing the trappings of the world. And going toward virtue. So within cynicism, there's this more virtuous core. So we might talk about that. But yeah, what comes up for you personally? What concepts or personal feelings come up around, cynicism, and some of these feelings?

Pihkala: Yeah. that's kyynisyys in [the] Finnish language. So that also comes from the Greek. And it reminds me of the philosophical stuff, also. And some of the great novels, both in world literature and in Finnish literature. We have a very prominent 20th century writer called Mika Waltari. Many of his historical novels have actually been translated into many languages, including English. The Egyptian [was] made into a Hollywood movie even way back in the 50s, or 60s. And those are interesting because he read a lot of philosophy. And it's often characters who really go out and see the world and encounter all kinds of suffering and joy and all the shades of life. And there's deep engagement with cynicism in those books. And I read a lot of them during my high school years. So that's been [a] foundational influence for me.

But in the ecological crisis and climate crisis, of course, this brings up the whole question about despair, for example. And so-called apathy. Is it really apathy? Or is it masking deep suffering that people are experiencing? Joanna Macy the ecopsychologist has written about this. And Renée Lertzman, also, with her concept of “environmental melancholia”. I think it's a really important topic. And also a complex one. So what one sees on people's faces and bodies may not be the whole set of emotions that they have.

Doherty: Yeah, so let's just flag some of these things for now. Or for later. You know, this idea of - Kari Norgaard is another person that's written around socialized denial. Renée Lertzman and Joanna Macy. So yeah, there's the idea that there's more under the surface. There's a potential “learned helplessness” phenomenon – where people become apathetic because they have no options. And it's a poignant story, the learned helplessness research, where they'd have, you know, dogs, you know, in some sort of laboratory where they would get shocks. And they wouldn't be able to resist and leave from getting the shocks. And so they would eventually just lay down and endure the shocks, you know. And that's where that, you know, that's a kind of barbaric kind of research that I hope isn't happening right now. But I think we feel that way. I think sometimes. And I know some of our listeners do. I know I have felt that way sometimes. You just kind of lay down and endure.

So anyway, the point being is there's a lot under this. So it isn't necessarily what we think. I have to say I embrace, I mean, I feel like I was born cynical. Or I grew up cynical. I think about where I was from, Buffalo, New York. Which is kind of what we call in the US, a “rust belt” kind of town. You know, an old city that was really great in the past. And when I grew up in the 70s and 80s, it was pretty dark times for that city. There was not much economic growth. They had not yet learned to celebrate their architecture and all their history. So it was just a lot of rusting kind of buildings and hulks of old steel plants and things like that. My family background is working class. And so I think, you know, one of the catchphrases was “City of No Illusions” is what they call Buffalo. So I had that coming in.

And then of course, I had my own family dynamics. You know, my parents had a tough marriage. And [it] wasn't very happy. And we had alcoholism and stuff like that. So I was kind of primed for a cynical outlook. So in many ways, as an adult, I've kind of learned to be “post-cynical” a bit. You know, like, I'm still alive. So what's left. I might as well try some other things. And then growing up in the 80s, you know, right in the Reagan Era. And the Sex Pistols were teaching me, that there was “no future,” you know. So I had a very much of that kind of 1984 thing growing up. So anyway, every generation has their kind of their stamp. And then our personal family, you know. And even our psychology and our neuropsychology. We've talked a little bit about seasonal depression, and you know, having low mood during the season. So -

Pihkala: Yeah, that's interesting to hear, Thomas. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know the Buffalo part. And I can imagine the sort of disillusionment. That's one emotion word that I've been exploring in relation to the ecological crisis also. And we've often been including some special words of the day. And perhaps the old word of “ressentiment.” Resentment almost, but written slightly different[ly]. That could be one because in many uses that refers to periods where people think that there is not going to be progress. And the past appears as more golden than the future. And it's difficult during those times.

The concept of ressentiment is linked with 1920s Germany, for example. And then it can of course, give rise to many sorts of social troubles that happened during that time. Some of the psychosocial climate scholars. I don't want to get too academic here. But Nadine Andrews and Paul Hoggett have been writing about this threat in relation to the climate crisis. Because if it starts to happen that there's more and more economic troubles also, because of the pressures given by the limits imposed on us by the more than human world, it may be that these feelings of disillusionment start to spread in many places. And I think there are already signs of that in many areas.

Doherty: Yeah. I'm searching for the title of a book I saw in MIT Press. It was - I'll see if I can find it. It was roughly about “how bad can it get,” I think that is the title.

So looming around our feeling discussion is a context of this ressentiment and how it informed past cultures. Certainly in the US there's a strong strain of this. And so we've got a context to our feelings. They don't exist in isolation from the world. So there's that ecology. We are part of the world. There is that inter being. So, you know, again, underneath this, there are these kind of beautiful things that we're all connected. And, you know, these are real, real feelings. Yeah. And, you know, there's different species of this. You know, I was getting into the whole idea of misanthropy and sort of either hating humans or negative views toward humans. And I think we need to air that a little bit. That's kind of a taboo-ish topic in some areas. But, you know, it's again, how could we not have some of this, you know, concerns about human behavior, and quote, unquote, "human nature".

But I think personally, it's really more around the human systems that we have created that are not [just]. None of the systems that we have came from magic. They all were created by people and they can be changed. So I think when we get into a bad system, that's where it brings out the worst in people. So my misanthropy is around human systems personally. And some of the things that we create. That's how I come at it versus internal to the people. Because I know there's good people. I've met good people, even in bad systems.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. I very much resonate with that. And, of course, there's a certain path dependency here. That if you and your group go down a certain road far enough, then it easily becomes sort of self-enhancing. But I really also emphasize this structural dimension around these issues. And related to so-called environmentalism, which is, of course, a tricky thing that in public discourse, it sometimes gets portrayed as an identity group. Even though a vast number of people [are] interested about what we call environmental values. But the discourse about whether environmentalists are misanthropic that's, of course, a very old or discourse also. And it's been quite prominent in Finland, too. We have some special figures in Finnish environmentalism who have sometimes had quite misanthropic views. And then it's been lots of debates and so on.

One interesting thing about that is that sometimes in the behind is such strong caring and love for the more-than-human world, that it then becomes so difficult to see those places and creatures damaged or destroyed. And that sort of then leads to some misanthropic comments which may not be completely logical, either. That was also seen in some of these Finnish environmentalists, like Pentti Linkola, for example. So then bitterness and being hurt are some of the emotional tones behind something some misanthropic environmentalist comments, I think.

Doherty: Yeah. And I think we need to open our hearts and bring this stuff in. I know. I think it's a developmental task for us to go through these feelings. I know when I was younger, I wrestled with all of these things too. And is it worth living? Is it worth adding to the problems?

I was talking to a young man recently in my psychology work who said something very poignant. He's involved in the Sunrise Movement and climate work and various other things. And really struggling with bringing out his views. And how that might affect his relationships with his family around some areas. And, you know, I made a reference to that, well, there's landmines in every direction, no matter what direction you go, there are these. And he said something along the lines of well, the best path is the one that destroys myself or something like that. You know, in the sense that he was really thinking that it would be safest just to destroy himself, you know, than to destroy his family relationships or these other things. So really, we take this in and we sometimes come to even a sacrifice, a self-sacrifice level here.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing and sharing that. I know that's very important for many people. And while I'm not a therapist, I've met in workshops some young people who have roughly similar takes on life. And [are] feeling those pressures. And it seems that it can be linked with feelings of shame also. And the so-called species shame is one dimension of this. Tim Jensen, in his book about Ecologies of Guilt in Environmental Rhetorics, discusses these for example. And the troubling questions related to what humanity is doing. And then the possibility to feel a sort of species level shame. Which then can lead also to self-loathing, and sometimes even in self-harming behavior. And that's been an important point for me. I often emphasize that what we call eco-anxiety is fundamentally very adaptive, because it shows that people are paying attention to what's happening in the world. And there's motivation to do something for the problems. But of course, one part of this broad spectrum is self-harming and even self-destructive behavior. So it can kind of get really hard.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, and let's stay with this. If you're listening, you know, these are heavy topics. But we can bear these. That's the thing. That we can take these in, because, you know, we're humans. And we can know what other humans feel. And we, you know, we can bring these into our hearts. And we don't have to be collapsed by them. You know, we can have [the] capacity to take these in a little bit.

I mean, obviously, you know, this goes in many, many directions. As I've mentioned, you know, in our conversations, how, you know, opening to different ways that people approach climate change. There's the “deep adaptation” group. And the “dark mountain” group. And the various people that are embracing different forms of just, “let's be open about the reality of this.” And the darkness. And, you know, I come back to, you know, when I'm teaching or when I'm advising counselors or whatever. You know, one way to think about it is three basic tasks here with this environmental stuff. There's expression, description and prescription right? There's how do I feel about it? How do I understand it? And what should we do about it? And so we're really [in this podcast] in the how do I feel about it? And that's an open territory. And so we want to bring in people. Then when you can, you know, and our descriptions obviously often are, you know, related to how we feel about things. So people are going to describe things differently. But, you know, we want to work together. We want to support each other.

Pihkala: Exactly. And trying to avoid overly binary interpretations. Even though that's a very human temptation in distressing times, this phenomenon, which is sometimes called hopium or reverse hopium. Referring to the pressure to either cling on to optimism, or then clinging on to very strong collapse beliefs, for example. Believing that in the next couple of years, it will all go down. Which is not very science-based either. Then there are difficult questions to be discussed in relation to scientific estimates and various downfalls or collapses and that sort of thing. But anyway, sometimes it's easy to see catastrophizing in these narratives.

Doherty: So Panu, “hopium.” Is that the term that you used? Hopium? Like opium?

Pihkala: Yeah. I don't know who first came up with it. It's playing with this term related to a drug and, for example, Jack Adam Weber from the West Coast of the US is using both of these terms to refer to the temptation of either strong optimism or strong collapse beliefs.

Doherty: Okay. I've never heard that term before. So that's a new one. Hopium or reverse hopium.

Pihkala: Reverse hopium.

Doherty: Yeah. So yeah, we get these terms. Schadenfreude. You know, this idea of, you know, and then you have this cassandrafreude. You know, like “I told you so.” You know, so people feel that - so we feel a lot of these kinds of things.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's true. And in a manuscript that I'm hoping to get published soon [note: published in Jan 2022 as Toward a Taxonomy of Climate Emotions], I'm discussing various climate emotions and feelings, and schadenfreude as one of them. You know, this joy when something goes down with some other with whom you have a special [envious or hateful] relationship. And there's been discussion about American politics and certain divides. And for example, certain feelings of schadenfreude that people may have in relation to climate issues. And that, of course, can be quite toxic.

Doherty: Yeah. And there is some joy. And when some aspect of a negative system tends to go down. Or there was almost a relief, I think, in some forms during the pandemic. The early height of the pandemic, when things were shut down, in some ways. I don't want to get too superficial about the pandemic. But yeah, there were certain parts of it that, you know, I know, people felt things were simplified. And it was easier. And there were no planes in the sky. It was a quiet, beautiful sky. And there were a lot of things there. So again, these are all feelings that we want to just open up to. And recognize in other people. We don't have to agree with them. We don't have to, you know, feel them all ourselves, but they are a part of the situation.

And again, I was talking to another person — another in my psychology work. He was bemoaning the fact that, you know, people aren't taking more action around climate change. And he was comparing this to World War II in the United States when people were really motivated to recycle. And to conserve. And to do Victory Gardens. Their own gardens to grow their own food to support the war effort. And he was bemoaning the fact that people don't do that now. And that, again, was a lead into that cynicism and misanthropy that people are lazy. Or, you know, consumerism and things. But I had to really think that, you know, during World War II, the government here in the US was mobilized. And was mobilizing the entire economy to address this. Changing all the car factories to make airplanes. And, you know, so the government was mobilized. And on top of that had asked people to do more. Asked people to go an extra mile. That's not what we've been seeing in the US. The government has not been mobilized. It's been sort of shifted to the individuals. And so it's not necessarily a good comparison in some way. So that brings me back to my systems piece here. You know, don't blame the victim. You know, don't blame the victim of the people. That's just my personal [opinion].

Pihkala: Yeah. I've often been saying to people that one of the complexities of the situation is that we are kind of [both] victims and perpetrators. All of us in various proportions. But the problems are structural. So I very much resonate with your concept of climate hostages. Thomas, for example.

Doherty: Yes. Yeah.

Pihkala: Then, for me, it seems that if we go very far into either end of this. You know, having just a victim position, or just a guilty perpetrator position, then we end up into even bigger trouble. Of course, one's social and economic context shapes very much the situation. But speaking about, for example, roughly middle class people in industrialized countries, I think it's important to avoid both of the extreme ends.

Doherty: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, in my work that I know, you're involved in around training counselors, I know, we talked about the front line. And there's a front line of action that people have to decide where they want to place themselves in terms of taking action. In this case, for some people, apathy is not an option. You know, it's a luxury that they can't afford to have. Because they are on the front line every day. And so that's where I think we get some of that kind of middle class or American, you know, upper class shaming. Like, well, you can afford to be apathetic, but I'm just surviving here.

So, but yes, there are people that are listening that are on the front lines that are acting and they have no choice. You know, as I say, you know, “some are born on the front lines. Some achieve the front lines. And some have the front lines thrust upon them,” to paraphrase Shakespeare. But, you know, so there's people out there that are like, okay, sure, you can sit somewhere and be apathetic, but I'm out there right now, making a difference. Because I have no choice. It's my own survival. My family. My community. So again, that's another energy to tap into here.

Pihkala: Exactly. And there's [a] real reason for bitterness, for many people. And then it goes to sort of existential and spiritual matters also. And those very deeply human tasks. Are we able to avoid the worst in us even in very troublesome conditions? And I think there's lots of compassion and human understanding needed. And then very strong voices coming from places of suffering, where they also see the task of humanity to try and to not become too toxic, even though the situations can be very horrible.

Doherty: Yeah. And I just want to, you know, we won't get into it today. But, you know, we've been talking to people like, Jade Sasser and Britt Wray about people's, you know, thoughts about having children. And that's an angle on this. And the idea should we bring in new people into the world? And that's something that people, you know, wrestle with, regarding some of these issues. And we've got some other programming that we're getting at that.

And then, of course, the spiritual piece about for listeners that have more of a, either a stoic outlook or a Buddhist outlook. You know, there's the idea that, you know, we try to work on our virtue and despite whatever the situation is. You know, I don't know a lot. I mean, I'm no expert on Buddhism myself. I mean, I'm inspired by these ideas, but the idea of a bodhisattva. You know, the idea that I know how difficult the world is and I am enlightened. But then I choose to go into it. I choose to come back into it to help others. And to help in the liberation of other beings. So I think there's a — I know, that's some piece of that helps to buoy me. You know, that I'm still alive. You know, it's like the old Monty Python [comedy routine], you know, “I'm not dead yet.” You know, and so, I'm still here. You know, I've been through this Sex Pistols of the no future phase for a long time. What's left here?

Pihkala: Yeah, that reminds me of a great European movie from the Polish [film] director Krzysztof Kieślowski. He's got these films, Three Colors. Trois couleurs. Where the main idea in the second film is that a person has become so pessimistic and despairing that he wants to die. And asks his friend to do that. But this is sort of spoiling - sorry for this for that — but in the end the friend fires a gun with a bit of false bullets. And so the man really thinks that he's gonna die. But then when he doesn't, he ends up realizing the existential value of life. It ends with celebrating. That's one one take on the sort of ancient ancient issue on despair and pessimism and still finding life valuable in the midst of that. So opposing nihilism, but being very honest and open about despair and even hopelessness at points. I think that's very important.

Doherty: Yeah. And so I think we have both characters, you know, inside ourselves. You know, all the time. Yeah. And then, as we move toward the end, you had a thought about a person that we tend to refer to a lot. Tim Lomas. And some of his work on happiness and cross cultural, you know, words. But I'm trying to get my head around this idea of the good side of envy. Could you say more about that?

Pihkala: Yeah. Lomas's book called The Positive Power of Negative Emotions is a very interesting read. And I liked the way that Lomas categorizes two kinds of envy. There's the vicious one, where you sort of want to take from somebody something. And then there's what he calls empathetic envy, which comes close to admiration. And goes to the constructive potentials in envy.

So this idea of trying to stay open to the various emotions and feelings we have, even though they may be on the dark side. Something that our societies and ourselves wouldn't like to accept in ourselves. But if we can encounter them, then there's also the possibility to try to work so that we could channel them constructively. For example, try to modify our envy into a more empathetic envy and admiration side. And that's, of course, one force that has really led things forward in the world. Even environmental matters. You know, there's lots of people in Finland who are complaining about climate matters. But then, when your neighbor installs solar panels, and says how much money he saved, then there's quickly spreading of panels on the neighborhood.

Doherty: Yeah. So again, we can play around these emotions. They have kind of shadow sides. And also odd sides. Unexpected sides. I think that's a good exercise for me. And I'm going to try that today. Is to think about people that I do respect and admire. And see about having some of themselves in my psyche. And I might encourage our listeners to think about that as well.

Yeah, we've got to wrap up here in a moment. I am going to deepen in some poems, as well for my therapy training group around arts. And I've got this poem by Theodore Roethke. In a Dark Time. Which is something that [I] was thinking about for today. You know, and he has some beautiful lines about “in a dark time, the eye begins to see.” You know, “I meet my shadow in the deepening shade.” He has some beautiful lines. “What's madness but nobility of soul at odds with circumstance.” He says “the day is on fire. I know the purity of pure despair, my shadow pinned against the sweating wall, the place among the rocks, is it a cave or a winding path? The edge is what I have.” You know, he has some of these great lines in the poem. I'll share the poem with you. And we'll put it in a link. But, you know, so I think we want to express this stuff. And, you know, bring it in, and remember that there's more to the story.

Pihkala: Exactly. I'm gonna look at that poem. Thanks for sharing. And thanks to all the listeners for being with us on this sort of journey during dark times; the souls descend in the terrain of many dark emotional tones, which then may have some secrets in them.

Doherty: So it's either a cave or a winding path. I'm not sure. And you can help - we can all help decide about that. So, Panu, good luck with your coping with the darkness here in Finland. And I'll do the same.

Pihkala: Thank you.

Doherty: And I'll talk to you again soon. Take care everyone.

Pihkala: Take care.

Climate Change And Happiness https://climatechangeandhappiness.com

Season 1, Episode 10: In Praise of Cynicism

Season 1, Episode 10 | In Praise of Cynicism

Links

Transcript

Season 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel

Season 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray