Season 2, Episode 24: Revisiting the Myth of Climate Apathy with Renée Lertzman
image credit | Ruslan Alekso
Season 2, Episode 24: Revisiting the Myth of Climate Apathy with Renée Lertzman
People have many kinds of feelings about climate and ecological crises, and many remain hidden under the surface, either because people are unsure about these or talking about them does not feel safe. In this episode, Thomas and Panu had a dialogue with Renée Lertzman, a pioneer in research and practical work about environmental feelings from a psychoanalytic perspective. Renée told of her work exposing “the myth of apathy” about climate change (people are generally not uncaring or indifferent to this issue, but lack tools to express and people who will take time to listen). Renée also explained her “Three A’s” method (helping people share their anxiety, ambivalence – mixed feelings – and their aspirations about eco and climate issues).
Links
The Myth of Apathy paper
Renée’s TED Talk: How to Turn Climate Anxiety into Action
Transcript
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
[music: “CC&H theme music”]
Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Renée Lertzman: Hello, good to see you. I'm Renée Lertzman.
Doherty: And Renée is an old time colleague and friend of ours, who's yet another one of these innovators in this whole area of climate and emotions. And so we're looking forward to talking with Renée who's coming in from the Bay Area. And Panu, do you want to get us started?
Pihkala: Yes, very good to see you, Renée. Again. We have met live once in Finland. A major Finnish company invited you to give a keynote speech. And I had already been reading many of your influential writings. It's really helped me with these nuanced dynamics of environmental attitudes and emotions and behavior. You're involved in a lot of things. But perhaps we could start from the journey itself. How was it for you? Would you like to share something about how you became so interested in these complex dynamics of environmental issues?
Doherty: Yeah.
Lertzman: Oh, well, that's a good question. So basically, first off, thanks for having me. I know both of you. And love both of you. So I'm really excited about our conversation. I started this journey. I found it when I was quite young. When I was a teenager. And I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area. I was exposed here and there to some information about what was going on with the environment. But it wasn't until I went to college. And I was planning to be a psychologist. And that was always very clear. Because I myself had benefited from psychotherapy when I was in high school. When I was around 15 and 16. And I knew I was going to be a psychologist. So I went to university. And while I was in training, as a psych major, I took a variety of classes. And one of them happened to be an environmental studies 101 kind of introductory course. And as I tell this story, in a variety of places, including the TED talk, I ended up giving.
That experience really derailed me. It was so unexpected. The impact it had on me psychologically, emotionally, you know, existentially. And at the time, it was the late 1980s. There wasn't really a lot of discussion about what all this means for us. And so it was a very solitary journey. I was, you know, in therapy and all of that. But no one at the time was really talking about what it means to process ecological crises, including climate change. So at the time, it wasn't specific to climate change for me. It was the whole confluence of the headline as humans have, you know, irreparably altered and damaged our beautiful, amazing planet. So that was the big takeaway from the class. And that's a lot to process. And then it was like, well, what do I do with this. You know, so, you know, that kind of started everything off for me.
Doherty: Yeah. So listeners, you know, that's the thing. Students, listeners. It is exactly what happens. And People are a little more aware today. I've I noticed teachers and students are aware. But really it is. Yes, the planet is irrevocably changed. We have 30 years or else we're doomed. The bell rings. And then we carry our books to the next class, you know. So it's this real, this kind of odd feeling we're supposed to carry this and walk around. So that leads to the whole. I mean, I think, Renée, one thing that you're known for. At that time anyway, was just realizing, hey, there's a whole school of thought about this. Like these psychoanalytic folks have thought about all this. And the idea of splitting. And all this sort of stuff. Is that kind of, can we talk about that a little bit? And how you found that helpful and led to your early research and your book and things?
Lertzman: Yeah, definitely. So I am and was and am in love with psychoanalytic clinical studies, research and perspectives. And by that I mean, work that's written by people who work with people in clinical settings, around, you know, healing, and trauma and anxiety and all of that. And so I've been immersed in that world for a long time. But for me, when I encounter that work, specifically around, how do we, as humans, process really difficult, challenging information? How do we work through guilt? You know, how do we work through shame? How do we work through conflict? You know, where we are pulled in different directions. It's been very hard for me to encounter that work, and not immediately think about our ecological and climate crisis. And connect the dots. Even if a lot of that work isn't speaking about that explicitly. And I'm talking about going back to whether it's Freud, or whether it's Melanie Klein, or whether it's Bion or whether it's, you know, a whole variety of very thoughtful, deep thinkers and practitioners. They're not necessarily writing about ecological crises or climate change. But my experience is it's a rich treasure trove of perspectives, tools and insights.
And so I've been basically, since that time in the late 80s, really connecting those dots. And seeing how we apply this in a way that isn't simple, simple. Like, you know, it's not apples to apples. It's like, well, how do we take this and make this meaningful, and useful for the human condition right now, as we enter into this, you know, Anthropocene moment. And to me, the concept of even where we are right now as a human species. And that we are actually having to come to terms with what we've done, is itself an unprecedented kind of existential situation. That I think we need all hands on deck as far as the human sciences. And, you know, cultural studies. And, you know, we need all of it. But I really feel like at the heart of it, is the psychological. And that has been missing for so many years, for reasons that I think both are confounding to me, and make total sense. Because if we take what we know about humans, and how we have this capacity to sort of disavow or kind of split off. Then yeah, we avoid talking about emotion and feeling and the messier stuff because it's hard.
But now we're at a moment where it's really clear with this conversation, your work, you know, we're in a very different place now. Yeah. So that's kind of my fundamental orientation. And then, you know, that led to my spending many years doing research, to try to deepen this perspective. And really see how I could make sense of what we think of as apathy, you know. What we, I'm using we, in quotes. Like, people working in the environmental and climate space have been in the grip of a lot of, I think, myths about and assumptions about humans that are frankly, not grounded in psychology at all. So in a way, what I'm trying to do is an intervention and say, you know what, like, we need to stop saying things like people are apathetic. We need to stop saying, oh, how do I get other people to care about these issues. That's actually completely backwards. Completely. And yet, it's really taken hold, you know, for a lot of people. Like, oh, I gotta make you care about this. Well, that's just not the case.
Pihkala: Yeah. Warm thanks for dwelling on that, Renée. In a recent interview, you also referred to the strange dissociation you noticed in the society at the same time when you heard these very worrisome facts about the ecological crisis in classrooms. And that's very deep. Dissociation, I think, is one of the reasons why the psychoanalytic and psychodynamic tradition was so important in the early 2000s, for example, in providing more understanding about the deeper dynamics. I think that any, you know, just simple coping theory is unable to explain that.
Because the discrepancies are so strong. And one of the things that I was drawn to in Thomas's early work was also an effort to integrate coping theory and defense theory, for example. So there's some influences from psychodynamic dynamics there also.
And Renée, you were part of this very influential book called Engaging with Climate Change, edited by Sally Weintrobe, which provided a lot of insights from the psychodynamic dynamic and analytic traditions. And for those listeners who may have heard very critical things about the psychoanalytic tradition, I want to mention that in her research Renée is very careful in that application. And utilizes very critical research methods there. So there's a lot in there. For your data, you did years of empirical research. And that might be a logical path to go from here. And it actually links with Thomas's personal history also and Great Lakes, also related to this “myth of apathy”. So would you like to speak a bit more about that?
Lertzman: Sure. So I ended up going on to do various graduate programs. I first focused on environmental communication. Did a master's in communication studies. And then went on to really want to just talk with people. And listen and work, you know, really conduct qualitative research in a community. And so I ended up, it's a long story, but I ended up my research was sponsored by an organization based in the Great Lakes. The Wege Foundation. And they were generous. Well, it was actually a specific individual, Jonathan Wege, who sponsored my research with the one requirement that it relate to the Great Lakes in some way. And so I ended up becoming a fellow with an organization in Madison, Wisconsin. And was connected with a community in the region.
And I ended up spending time in Green Bay, Wisconsin. And for me, at the time, that was like the equivalent of going to, you know, Sub Saharan Africa or something. Because, you know, I'm from California. I've lived in the East Coast, the West Coast, but being in the Midwest was really new and different for me. And I absolutely loved every minute of it. I embedded myself in this community in Green Bay that welcomed me in. And I spent time listening and talking with people who. I had a market research firm, who very generously, it's kind of amazing to think about it, now sent out a survey to their database of 1000s of people in the region. And I designed the survey very carefully, to show me who, from an environmentalist perspective, would appear to be not engaged and end quote, apathetic. Who would be normally written off by an environmental organization, you know, like, oh, they don't read anything about this. They don't watch anything about this. They don't talk about this with their friends and family. And I decided to hone in and do in depth interviews and conversations with a subset of those people who I would have been like, well, why would I talk to them? Because they're not engaged. So it was pretty edgy and scary for me to do that. And I designed these interviews very inspired by psychodynamic and psychoanalytic research.
And all that means is that there's a lot of listening. There's a lot of presence. I'm asking a lot of questions. And I'm not using a script. So this was a very different way of conducting social science research.
You know, I have a PhD in social science from Cardiff University. You know, it's pretty traditional. But I went and did this methodology that's referred to as psychosocial research. And I found the experience just fundamentally changed me. You know, I came out, in the middle of doing the research in Green Bay, I came up with this concept of the myth of apathy. And then I pitched a piece about that to a magazine. And wrote it quickly. It ran. And that piece led to maybe 10 speaking engagements around the world because it just struck a chord. And the argument, which you can still find online. It was published by the ecologist. It's still out there. 2008. Where I argue that, you know, it's really not that people are apathetic, there's so much else going on. But we have to listen. We have to show up differently. We have to show up with compassion, with empathy. And to really appreciate it. Like, some of these people I interviewed knew more about what's going on with the ecology of the Great Lakes. The water quality. The air quality.
Than most people. Think about that. The people I interviewed knew more about it than most people and yet, would have been written off and had been written off by the environmental community.
Doherty: So you know, Renée, I'm thinking about this growing up in Buffalo, myself. Buffalo, New York. And on the shores of the Great Lakes. Lake Erie. Lake Ontario. And just the reality, even myself growing up in the 70s, you know, with the lakes being part of the culture. My parents grew up swimming in lakes. By the time I was a child, Lake Erie was seen as, you know, poisoned and polluted. And then we have the weather that comes off the lakes with the snow and the lake effect snow. So it's a big part of people's reality. And so you are tapping into that whole thing. This is before all the really obvious polarization about climate change, too. And just people's basic thinking about this. So it's really nice to go back in time a little bit to see what this was like. And you had this whole myth of apathy.
For listeners, that means it's a myth. It's not that people don't care. As Renée was saying, they know a lot. It's just that they might either feel powerless about an issue. Or it's a taboo topic for their community. Or they don't have a way to plug in. And so for their own mental health, they package this care away. You know, they put it away, because they can't do anything about it. And I think you revealed that. And then you talked about these three A's, you know. And I think you do that even now with your work in corporations. You have people talk about what they're anxious about. And their ambivalence. Their different kinds of feelings. And then what they aspire to. Which I really think is inspiring. Do you want to talk about the three A's and how that worked out there?
Lertzman: Yeah, sure. So that was a very clear, helpful reframe of what you just offered. So thank you. That's exactly what the myth of apathy is about. Which is that we go around making assumptions and reading into people's behavior, and making interpretations. And we project a lack of care or concern. Which I find deeply problematic and inaccurate. It puts it back on us to try to tune in and understand what's actually going on. So the three A's is a shorthand that I came out of that research with. That I designed. It took a long time to get to the three A's. And I am very proud, because to be honest, what happened was, after my research, I got a position at Portland State University. And I was teaching a class on the psychology of climate change, believe it or not, in 2010. It was the first class offered on this topic. And I was experimenting. And I had my students keep a journal. And the journal was, you know, to keep track of when you see climate change in your life. You know, it could be a poster. It could be a news article. It could be a conversation. And just kind of pay attention. And so I had all these journals. I was sitting in my place in Portland, looking through these journals. And one of my students had written this little story, where she said, I just saw a book called, you know, 50, whatever it was 50 Places to See Before They Disappear.
And she said, my initial reaction was, wow, you know, like, what is this world coming to that we even have a book about places that are disappearing. And then she said, my next thought was, I better go out and see these amazing places before they're gone. And then she said, then I realized if I did that, I would be contributing to the very problem, right? I'd be part of the problem.
And so I had this almost like a flash of insight where I realized that it captures it all in one kind of simple cycle. So anxiety. I'm feeling deeply anxious about what's happening with the world. Ambivalence. I want to go out and continue my life as a person. Like I want to do these things that give me a lot of pleasure. You know, flying and traveling and whatever that might be, that we now know, you know, are problematic. But I want to. So that's the concept of ambivalence. Is where we are literally in conflict within ourselves. And then aspiration is, but I don't want to be part of the problem. I want to be part of the solution. And so I came up with the shorthand of the three A's as a way to kind of help us tune in to it's never just one thing. It's never just anxiety. It's never just overwhelming. It's really very complex. And I designed the three A's very specifically to use with my organizational clients.
So I do not work privately with people. I work with organizations. Companies. Nonprofits. Government foundations. I kind of work across any sector. But what matters is I partner with people who are in those organizations who are trying to make some change happen. And the way I use the three A's is actually more to help them and us be attuned to what's happening with the people we're wanting to engage and bring along with us. And that for a lot of people is a huge revelation.
You know, to really step into the shoes of others to think well, what might be anxiety producing about this? Where might there be ambivalence? And where is the aspiration? And that work eventually led to my creating a really cool resource that, you know, you can find online called Project Inside Out. And the project inside out the website is, you find it at projectinsideout.net. And it was started with a grant from the KR Foundation, who basically asked me to come up with sort of a fantasy project. And I thought, well, what if I take some of this work and package it up a little bit more, so that it can be used by people working on change.
Doherty: And we're gonna put the link to Project Inside Out in our show notes. Projectinsideout.net. And some of the other early writing pieces that Renée talked about the myth of apathy. Again, which is still a kind of a classic reference for, you know, students and thinkers in this area. Yeah. I'm reminded of Janet Lewis, our recent guest who talked about climate dialectics. This idea of, we have these competing ideas. And we have to find some sort of pathway through. So that's I think, Renée was illustrating the whole dialectical piece there. I totally identify with that young person. And by that I mean, I call it extinction tourism. It's like if before this world goes you know, I'm gonna. It's a FOMO. Eco FOMO which we've talked about, you know, fear of missing out. Which goes in a lot of directions. Missing out on the world. Or missing out on doing enough. So I totally identify with that. As in my 20s I felt very similar as an outdoor guide and river rafting guide. But Panu, what are you thinking about over there?
Pihkala: Yeah, I think this is very rich. And so [are] the complexities of the affective dimensions around ecological issues, which, after all, are socio-ecological issues these days. And that's one reason why I think the psychosocial research tradition is so important. There can be conflicting emotions and desires. Like the desire to see fantastic places and the sort of anticipation of guilt, if one would do so. And this book by Renée, Environmental Melancholia, features discussion of many emotional tones which are not so often discussed yet. I did some explorations of that in a Finnish book and in this English article called “Toward a Taxonomy of Climate Emotions”. And some of those tones like disappointment, feeling betrayed etc.. But also an urge to do something good. These all have links to Renée's research, also.
And reparation is one big part of Renée's book. And we actually explored that in a Finnish national survey about climate emotions (Sitra, 2019). Asking about the Finnish emotion term “hyvittämisen halu”. Which might be translated as desire to make amends. The sociologist was a bit surprised that I proposed that we add that there but they accepted it. And over 30% of the respondents did say that they have felt this. Of course, it's their self-reflection. We can't know all the dynamics. But I still think it's significant. Renée, you saw lots of this desire for reparation dynamics. Would you like to speak a bit about that? And perhaps open up the concept of reparation for the listeners?
Lertzman: Yeah, thank you. I'm so glad you introduced that concept because it's central to really all of this. For me, the guiding question is always, what are the conditions that enable and cultivate our capacity to want to make amends. To want to heal. To want to make something better. And my inspiration for this is from the Jewish teaching, that's called Tikkun Olam. Which is translated as, you know, to repair the world. And I was raised with this, you know, orientation. You know, it's just, it's very much in the Jewish tradition to want to make it better. But where I'm at is, if I really want to know, how do we foster the conditions collectively? Not, you know, on an individual level, per se. But I'm way more interested in the collective social context. So what are the conditions that help wake that up? Wake up that part of ourselves. Because I strongly believe that it's there. And it's not just my belief. It's like now, we've got a lot of research, you know.
Thankfully, we have a lot of research on whether it's, you know, whatever we want to call it. You know, whether it's the science of empathy. Or whether it's altruism. Or, you know, incredible work in the future. What it means to be a good ancestor, you know. And all of this, there's just a ton of evidence that supports that humans have this capacity deep down, but there are very specific conditions that we need. And that's where I think we should be focusing all of our attention right now. Like, literally, I think we're spending way too much time talking about pushing solutions on people, like cheerleaders. Or we're shouting. So we're either educating, cheerleading or writing, you know. RIGHT. We're not really guiding. We're not really like thinking about what we need. What do you need, that will enable you to feel safe enough to feel contained enough to feel like you can go there, and really want to make things better. And instead, we tend to focus on the symptoms. Which is, oh, overwhelm, you know. Paralysis and despair, you know. I think all have this sort of, it's there.
But really, we know a lot about those conditions for repair. And that has to do with, you know, the things I think we all know. The three of us are familiar with which, you know, people need to feel like they matter. They need to feel like their actions are going to have some sort of impact. We need to feel like we have agency. We need to feel like we can have a full life, frankly, you know. To be involved with climate doesn't mean we're giving up. We're not throwing our life away in terms of a quality of life, you know. And so it's finding that balance of what these factors are. And acknowledging that they're going to be unique for each person. There's not a formula. But, you know, what I would invite people listening to reflect on is, what are the conditions that you need to support you in your ability to be able to make repairs in a healthy, grounded way? And to consider what are the conditions that others need? And coming from that place is a very different place, so I'm going to try to convince you why this is an important issue. And why you should take action on it. It's a very different energy. It's a different orientation entirely.
Doherty: Yeah, that's really well said. Yeah, so listeners, that's something just for us to take a breath. And to take in. We don't have to answer it today. But again, it's often just asking the right question. And so as the old poets say, you know, these are questions to be lived. To live out. So what do you need to support you to have an impact, to have a full life? What do you need? And then also that other question, What do others need? So it does kind of put us into other people's shoes. Panu and I were just recording an episode for the future on families, and couples and all of the different, you know. We have to do that in our own families. We have to put ourselves in the shoes of our parents. Or into our children. Or our brothers or sisters or our significant others. Renée, have you done any? Well, we have a few minutes left. So we can go in a few directions here. But I was going to ask you about couples and families. But maybe this dynamic also comes out in your work with or, you know, companies and organizations? I don't know, how would you want to? How would you want to go Renée, right now?
Lertzman: Well, I work only with organizations, I do not work with individuals, couples or families. So that's not my orientation. I partner with amazing clinicians, for whom that is the focus. And that's very rich, because, you know, we all have our relationships, we're navigating. You know, our friends, family, co-workers. And everyone's kind of in a different place in their journey. And I think there's not enough attention to really looking at how to navigate that skillfully. Because, you know, a lot of times people are within a family system. Or let's just say, in a team.
Let's say a team and an organization are in a very different place. You know, where someone is maybe having a hard time going there. And, and feeling very resistant. And very even hostile. And then there, you've got other people who are like, wait a minute, this feeling is really the most urgent thing in my life. And I don't know how to deal with this. This is very frustrating.
And so a lot of what I do that I have found to be extremely impactful is frankly, I work with these teams and leaders to create a culture. A team culture, organizational culture where it's okay, you know, to talk about these things. And it's okay to be in a different place. That it's not like trying to get everyone to, you know, feel the same way about something. But really celebrate the diversity of perspective. The fact that people come to this from very different places is important. We need that. We need to be able to learn and listen to, okay, like for you, this is maybe not the biggest priority. I want to learn more. That's hard for me. But I want to learn more about that, because frankly, we all need to figure out how to come together around these issues. And move into a productive way of having dialogue and interaction.
Pihkala: What Renée has shared here, has both the individual and collective dimension. So I think that's a very important joining together of these two. And in a way it leads organizational cultures and teams towards more shared vulnerability. Kind of inter-vulnerability. But then people can very quickly, also get the feeling that this actually makes them stronger. And that's one of the sorts of things that people may think of as a paradoxical thing. But that can happen if there is enough containment and leadership and companionship. And this would be a very rich topic to discuss even more. But we probably have to start wrapping things up for this episode. And it would be totally marvelous if we could have you as a guest sometime again, Renée. And one of the emotions around these issues is gratitude also. And that's part of my affective landscape. I'm very grateful for the work that different people like you two are doing around these issues.
Lertzman: Thank you. And I feel grateful as well for you all. And holding space for these conversations is really, really important. And part of the work of repair is having these interactions where we can talk about these topics. And so I'm very, very appreciative of both of you as well. And I thank you for inviting me to be with you.
Doherty: Yeah. I mean there's no way to do this work, but to do it. And so even with this podcast, we just create these spaces to talk about things. You know, and I really liked what you're talking about Renée. I mean, so all of us live in organizations. And we work in different places so the listeners can think about, you know. I mean, I feel for people because of course we do have the freedom to get into this deeply and really really be honest and transparent and share. And it's so rare. And even in the corporate world in general to share anything really personal because it's so political at different levels. But so think about creating a culture. We can talk about these things. And I think the subtext there, Renée, is, even if we don't feel the same thing, or even if we disagree right?
Lertzman: Yeah, exactly. It's so important.
Doherty: So maybe we can, maybe we can close on that note with some anecdote or some idea, Renée from you. Or advice for us. Because I think that's kind of where people maybe will stop. Because well, I don't really want to open up this thing. Or I know, my colleague is going to disagree. We know people. We know what they're going to say. And so how has it worked? Have you seen any good stories or just a takeaway about how it works? Even when people disagree, they move through that little doorway?
Lertzman: Absolutely. So it's a much bigger conversation, but what I will just say is actually simple. Which is, it's really about being present. And coming from a place of curiosity, and listening to others. So, you know, if there's one thing people can do, coming out of this, it's one, you know, practicing self awareness of your own activation triggers emotions. But doing whatever you can to practice being truly present to others. Especially when there's a different perspective. I think that's where the rubber meets the road in this work. And it's where I see a lot of people struggle.
So it's really that straightforward. It's like listening, and asking evocative questions. You know, there's a short video by the way that I helped produce with the Alliance for Climate Education. And it's nicknamed the secret to talking about climate change. But it's got a lot of wisdom in there. And really, what it's about is not talking about climate change. It's about asking questions. It's about asking people really open ended questions and then giving your presence and listening to what comes from that. That's the most powerful and impactful thing we could do right now.
Doherty: That's well said. So we'll find that and put a link to that. It's a great title there. But it is about yeah, I think human human connection ultimately. Yeah, this is really great, Renée thanks so much. People will have a doorway now into the variety of all your contributions. And so we'll spread that word around. And we're going to wrap it up. I'll get into my, well Renée and I are both I think I'm pacific time so we're getting into our days here. Our weekdays. Renée, what's your life like today?
Lertzman: Oh, gosh, well, I'm heading over to Google. Where I've been working for a few years. So yeah, I work very closely with a team over there. Love them. And that's my day. So.
Doherty: That's great. Yeah, like some of the other climate work as we've talked about therapists, they'll go into their sessions and you're going into your work.
Lertzman: Exactly. That's my version of it.
Doherty: Yeah. And I'll go into my version of that, which will also include seeing clients. And writing and various things. Panu, what's left for you this evening, Panu?
Pihkala: Well it's the end of the thinking part of the day. And moving towards spending time with the boys. And once more warm thanks Renée for finding the time to join us. I'm really looking forward to future discussions. And dear listeners you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. You can also find us on Patreon. We appreciate any support. There's a lot of wisdom to be drawn from Renée's input here. So do take time with it and to take care. Thank you for listening.
Doherty: Yes, listeners, Renée, and Panu all. Take care. Thank you. The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.
