Season 1, Episode 12: Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting Man
image credit | Shane Rounce
Season 1, Episode 12 | Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting Man
In this episode, Panu and Thomas are joined by Finnish therapists Sanni Saarimäki and Taneli Saari to discuss the Finnish “scene” around eco-anxiety and climate emotions. After discussing their own paths towards working with climate emotions, Sanni and Taneli introduce both the Finnish National Project and Tunne ry (an organization focusing on eco-emotions), whose work is apparently the first such project funded at a national level in the world. Together the four discuss the Shouting Man project as a unique and cathartic way to express climate emotions and also explore the role of therapy methods such as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in a climate and environmental context.
Links
MIELI - Mental Health Finland
Climate Anxiety report by Panu (2019), published by MIELI
Nyyti ry - Mental Wellbeing for Students
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
Primal Scream Therapy - Dr. Arthur Janov
Edvard Munch’s The Scream
“The Waking Up Syndrome” essay (2008) by Sarah Edwards & Linda Buzzell
Transcript
Season 1, Episode 12: Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting Man
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
[music: “CC&H theme music”]
Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.
Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.
Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.
Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. And the personal side of climate change and other environmental issues. And we have two special guests joining Panu and I today from Finland: And I'll let them introduce themselves.
Sanni Saarimäki: Hey. Hi everybody. My name is Sanni Saarimäki.
Taneli Saari: Hi everyone. I'm Taneli Saari.
Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Taneli and Sanni. Lämpimästi tervetuloa, in Finnish. It's a great joy to have you join us. And Thomas has some roots in Europe. But, of course, his family has been living in North America for a while. So we want to engage in European conversation. And, of course, we three, Sanni, Taneli and I, know each other from many years back. Finland is a rather small country. Five million people. With quite [a] large land area compared to many other European countries.
The public discussion on eco-emotions and climate anxiety and other issues related to that [in Finland] really gained more prominence in 2017. And we three have been in many ways connected with that public discussion. And we have sometimes been running workshops together, but we don't work together on a day to day basis. So that's some of the background. And there's a lot to talk about [regarding] various things going on in Finland, and your own journeys towards this topic. And that's something that we'd like to begin with. So could you tell us something about how you end[ed] up [in] this area of eco-emotions and the rest of the stuff? And could you, Sanni, start, for example?
Saarimäki: Yeah, sure. Thank you. And thank you for inviting us to speak with you today. So I am a psychologist from my educational background, and also a history teacher. But I haven't done that in many years. My journey towards eco-emotions started from my own experience. My own personal experience. I had been working in a University of Applied Sciences as a study psychologist for some time. And that's where I also met Taneli. And then after those couple of years I was working there, my contract ended. And it was a bit of a surprise for me. It sometimes happens that [you] may have to change jobs and things like that. But for me, it was a very huge experience to be unemployed. And I have been - before I had been thinking that my role in this whole global situation is to be there for the students. And help them to deal with their own emotions. And then find their own place and go and save the world. So that would be my thing. And I didn't have that anymore at that point when I became unemployed.
And it was a very rainy summer here in Finland. And all I had was time. And I was reading a lot about climate change and other environmental issues when I had too much time. And too much time to also realize how serious the situation was with the climate change. And kind of that eco-anxiety I had hidden inside me somewhere, came through the surface. And at the same time when I was experiencing this eco-anxiety myself, I also thought of a few of my students. They did not come to the study psychologist to talk about climate anxiety, no, but also underneath their situations, there might be climate anxiety or other global threats that they are thinking [about] how that's gonna affect the future.
I had a lot of time and I was thinking: where do they then go if I, as a psychologist, don't know where to go and who to talk to about these issues? So where would they go? And then I was lucky to start a new job as a study psychologist, once again. Now in Aalto University. And I thought first that the eco-anxiety would go away and I would continue my normal job. I would be working as a psychologist once again with stress and motivation issues and things like that. But the eco-anxiety did not go away. It was there.
I was also lucky [at] that point that my colleagues, many colleagues, said that they don't know what to do with this, but if I want to do something with this, they would support me. They would try to help me to do something. And they said, the students are—actually it's hidden there, but they do have these same [kinds of] fears and emotions. And there is not much yet that we could do, but let's experience this together and do something.
And I started to pilot climate anxiety groups. And at the same time, I was keeping contact with Taneli. And he was one of those persons who would actually understand that I'm not—my climate anxiety is not something as a cover. It's a real thing. It's not covering my personal issues or anything like that. But it's there. And we also decided that when these pilot groups were doing quite well in Aalto, that maybe something similar would be needed outside. And we then founded Tunne. Our organization. And now it's been—this is now our fifth year. Yeah.
And along the way, I also got a lot of help from Panu. Especially at the beginning, when I was thinking [about] where to go and who to contact. And there was this article [in Helsingin Sanomat] about Panu's book. And one of my colleagues said that hey, you should write to Panu and ask. Yeah, it has been—then the years have gone by quite fast.
Pihkala: They have indeed. Thanks so much, Sanni, for sharing about this journey. And it's been a transformative journey I'd say. Listening to you and knowing this. And this tunne word means emotion in [the] Finnish language. In the podcast, we've often spoken about different languages. And so we use that word in Finnish, both for emotion and feeling. We don't do any separation for that in the Finnish language.
And this transformative journey of Sanni's and Taneli's and others then led to an NGO organization which focuses really on eco-emotions and climate emotions. But Thomas, you have some common things in your work. You know, listening to people. Even though you don't work at a university anymore. Or [as] a study psychologist. But you see people who have issues that they talk about. And issues that are underneath what they talk about. So what resonates with you when listening to Sanni's story this far?
Doherty: Well, yeah. I think Sanni's story is very universal. I can identify with it. People that really had these—again, it starts personally. There's this idea of having an environmental waking up and awareness. And it's troubling. And [it's been called] a “Waking up Syndrome”. And then people want to do something about it.
And, you know, I know well the challenge of getting this done in the institution. In the US, we would think about [it] in our university counseling centers. And psychologists and counselors are working with students in universities. Yeah, so I've actually done that work. And I could see that. And it really does take some people that just believe in the idea to get it started. And then once you scratch the surface, many people identify with it. It is really under the surface, like you say. No, I think it's great. And it just takes a pathfinder. It takes someone to start. And then people follow along. So yeah. I think many listeners can identify with Sanni.
Pihkala: Yeah, thanks Thomas for reflecting on that. And now, in addition to this NGO where Taneli is also being very active—and I'll very soon ask Taneli about his journey—then there's the National Finnish Social and Health Sector Eco-Anxiety Project. And, again, we all three have been involved in that [on] the advisory board and in various strategic positions. But Taneli has actually been working there. And Sanni is the chairperson of Tunne NGO. Which is one of the three organizations working for the National Project. So just for the listeners, there's several organizational manifestations of this work that we are talking about. But please Taneli, you've been listening to us patiently, as suits your character strengths. But could you share something about your journey?
Saari: Yeah. Thanks Panu. And hi everyone. It's nice to be on this podcast. I'm a longtime listener and a first time guest. Well, I have a professional background in social services and [a] degree as well. And I have had this kind of thirst to experience a lot of different fields. And my first job was - I started as a kindergarten teacher. And moved from there to Child Protective Services. And I was still doing that job part time when I was studying. And I was in my early 20s, and faced some really serious situations of my clients. Like sexual abuse. And that kind of stuff that really stops you and makes you think about what we're doing to each other. To ourselves.
And from there, the years went on. And I've worked with people with substance abuse problems. Even prisoners. Then with families, again. With children and their parents and so on. And, like Sanni said, it was in 2014 when I also switched to this University of Applied Sciences. And my job title was a Study Wellbeing Advisor. And both Sanni and me—students came to see us one-on-one. And then we guided these different peer groups. For example, tension and a fear of performing in front of people was one of those topics.
And we had these really interesting coffee break discussions. I have to thank Sanni for those. It was people who believed what you're saying and thinking. It is really meaningful. Yeah. So we had these coffee break talks. And talked about what kind of services our social and healthcare sector should provide in the future. And we had this discussion back then. Like seven [or] eight years ago. That there's no place to go if you want to talk [about] how much climate change or other aspects of environmental crisis[es] affect you. And, in that sense, we were kind of right. And also, that's what Panu's book in 2017 [Päin helvettiä? Ympäristöahdistus ja toivo] mentioned. And I moved to this NGO side of [the] work later on. And then I had some experience [about] how to run an association and what is needed. And, like Sanni told, then we decided that we should form this Tunne. And we have started doing these workshops and different kinds of trainings since 2018.
And that year, also, from our perspective, was a turning point. The IPCC report that was about the 1.5 Celsius degree warming made a real big splash. And, for example, the media and public awareness exploded after that. And also the demand for our workshops and what we do. People were really interested after that. And luckily—we did this work in our free time as 100% volunteers. We didn't raise a penny or didn't get paid at all. And didn't want to. And from [the] start of 2020, we got this grant from this funding center for social and health organizations in Finland. And that funding center has a background in - or all the grants that they give to organizations, they are signed by the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health. So that's a nationally funded project.
And there we have three different organizations. Mieli, which is, I think, the oldest mental health organization in the world, as well as in Finland. And they are in charge of the project management. And then there are two like specialist organizations. We from Tunne ry. And then Nyyti ry which focuses on students' wellbeing. And so there are three specialists who work [on] that project.
And we have three areas which we focus on. One is we provide support for people who experience environmental or eco-emotions. We organize these workshops, and these peer groups from three to five times. Then we have these like open webinars and so on. Panu is a frequent speaker in those. And then, besides providing support and places for people who are, for example, eco-anxious, then we also train professionals. And people who meet people who go through eco-emotions. That means that we have trained teachers, therapists, social and health sector workers, [and] people who work with young people, for example.
That's one of the key findings that we have seen in the past three years now. That people who meet people, who go through these things, they are really interested now [in] hearing more about what we know. So professionals are waking up to the topic more and more. I think that even in one year, I've seen a slight increase in the amount of interest. Yeah. And the third area is then we tried to raise the public awareness about the mental health aspects of climate change and [the] environmental crisis, and so on.
Pihkala: Thanks Taneli for sharing all that. I think that the third area—raising awareness both among the general public and also amongst various professionals—has led to some of the developments that you mentioned. And this is an example also of the fact that regardless of what your background is, there is something that you can do. This is, of course, different for many people depending on the context. But here we also have a person from the Social Sciences and Social Work. One person from the study psychology field. And one person who did a dissertation of environmental theology way back, for example. So it's an interesting mix of people. And there's something for each one to do. But what about you, Thomas? What came to your mind when listening to the story that Taneli shared with us?
Doherty: Well, I'm just really impressed. I think listeners can—I'm imagining if there's listeners that are in a policy position, or in some sort of institutional position, it's neat to see the story. And how this actually came about. So it was kind of, like a lot of these things, it's organic. Right? You know, it takes some personal relationships. And personal interests and people being honest about their own eco-anxiety and environmental concerns. It seems to me part of this work is we're working in the system. And then we're working outside the system, right? And we need to have that partnership. So the new ideas might come in from outside the system, but we need the help from the mainstream mental health support organizations and society as well. So I think that models that really well.
I'm really impressed by that—and I'll have to do more research about Mieli being the oldest mental health program in the world. I'm not surprised about that, you know, from a government standpoint. There's a perception in the US that there's nothing being done in our government around climate change or things. And that's not true. There are people within our government doing a lot of things. But obviously there's a lot of gridlock and a lot of counter forces at play. I don't know, personally, of any national or even state level organization addressing the idea of eco-anxiety itself. But I don't want to assume that there's not a listener out there that's not doing that somewhere. So if you are doing it, let us know, because I'd love to share the information.
But then I go into the question. And I don't know, Panu, you might have the same question. But like what I think listeners might be curious about [is] what exactly happens in some of the workshops. And like, what does some of the work look like? That's where I would go with the conversation. I'd like to talk about the Shouting Man Program. I know that's one of the programs. But on a more interpersonal level, like what happens in some of these groups or workshops?
Pihkala: Would you like to start Sanni, for example? And if you want to share some of the methodology that you are using, please feel free. So we'll try to stay away from a very nuanced discussion of various psychological and therapeutic stances, but I know that you've been using Acceptance Commitment Therapy and mindfulness, for example. Which are very interesting. And we've briefly touched upon that in some previous episodes. So please feel free to talk also about that if you want.
Saarimäki: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I do use—when I meet people individually in my daily job, or if I'm doing workshops with Tunne I do use Acceptance and Commitment methods. And also contemplative methods like mindfulness. And lately I've also been very interested in radical self-compassion. And how to kind of take care of yourself. And giving those tools.
And the reason why these methods came to my work is because they were there already before. And those were pretty much the main psychological methods I had. And I didn't know what to do with climate anxiety or eco-anxiety. But I was wondering if I could use these methods I already know. And I would already have some tools. And that was kind of a big leap for me to kind of accept that yeah, I don't need to first get another degree or something else to start working.
And, to me, it's about preventive work. So I don't do clinical healthcare. I meet students, or in Tunne I meet those people who are in need of having those discussions. But I don't do health care. Or I don't diagnose anything. So I have kind of free hands there. We talk about values. What is important for the person. How to deal with your own self-critic. And how to take care of yourself. How to act and especially how to act based on your values. And step by step choosing your own path. And also when not to act. Like sometimes it's needed to protect yourself or protect something else that you are “not acting,” right now, but you should be choosing the time [to act] and choosing the battles as well.
And then we talk about a lot of acceptance. And that “bad” emotions and feelings come to very crucial roles. How to accept these emotions as part of the process, and [as] travel partners and messengers. And they are not the enemy. How to be with them, and how to get also energized from them. And all of those emotions, they are there for a reason. And many times the reason is not what they are shouting to get your attention. But you have to be able to listen to them and see what actually brings them there. And then they will help you. And also anyone to help to go to that path according to your values. If you take them as travel partners. And mindfulness is about pausing and noticing emotions and feelings. And what's happening around you as well. So I use mindfulness exercises.
Doherty: Very well said. That's a great primer on eco-anxiety support. I really appreciate that. Emotions as “travel partners.” That's a nice term. Yeah.
Saari: That's one of the things that sticks to people. And they kind of pay attention to that one. And that topic comes to discussion. If I could continue with, for example, when we have this, like five time peer group that meets. Well, the first time people get to know each other. They kind of interview each other. What's their trip with eco emotions. When have they kind of woken up to what's going on. And the seriousness and how it has changed during the years and so on.
The second time is kind of like information-based. Then we usually talk [about] how these environmental changes are going to affect or are already affecting people mentally, physically. Or what it does to us as people who live in groups. And then after we kind of then digest the information as well together. Kind of like these are like, hard and difficult things. Sad things. Huge things that are happening to us.
And then the third time, we start to focus on coping. What kind[s] of ways there are to adjust your own emotions. And make yourself feel more relaxed or less anxious and so on. And we kind of get to try together to do different exercises. And kind of give home exercises for people to do as well and so on.
And then the fourth meeting. That focuses on the support of communities. What benefits there are when people come together. And how they can also share thoughts and emotions. But they can also achieve this by doing some sort of action.
And then the fifth time it also kind of rounds up the meeting. And we say goodbye to each other, but before that we talk about the future. And usually we do this for some kind of exercise that makes people kind of start to envision this utopia or pro topias. Futures that are kind of like wanted in a way.
Doherty: Yeah, I'm taking some notes here. This really dovetails a lot with how I work with people. So I really appreciate that.
Saari: And then here we are, of course, like, I have to give credit to - Panu's work [on group methods to encounter eco-emotions; there was a Finnish pilot project on that led by Panu] has been like [a] tremendous support here. And then we are aware of these models. For example, Carbon Conversations [Ro Randall and others, started in Britain]. And other things that have been going on outside Finland before we started our work. There have been some heroes for us as well. Or some models to do.
Pihkala: Yeah, this Mieli. Mental Health Finland. The previous title was Mental Health Finland. It's been the sort of main mental health organization in Finland. And they realized the possibility of climate anxiety around 2018, I would say, on a more official level. And there one of their leaders, especially, was sensitive to the topic. And they published a report on climate anxiety, which I wrote for them in 2019. And it's been very influential, I think, that such a respectable organization in a society says that, you know, this is something that we should think about and feel about.
And, of course, it's a bit easier in Finland. You know, a country of five million. It's like a small state in the US. And the bigger the country or nation is it gets more tricky. But still, there's been some benefits. And one of the efforts has been to make use of the ecotherapy and ecopsychology resources, partly developed by Thomas and colleagues, also for the Finnish scene.
Now COVID-19 has greatly affected the national project, of course. And I know that Taneli, you have had to move many activities online, for example, because of the impossibility of live meetings. There's been cooperation also with some marketing offices for the public awareness, part of things. So sort of normal parts of organizational work. And from that came one special thing that Thomas was also interested about is the Shouting Man Campaign. Would you like to share something about that? That gained some international attention to Britt Wray's newsletter, also.
Saari: Yeah. I think the Shouting Man. He was like a good character at that time and was interested. I think he was taking part in some TV contest, right? So he had gained some leverage and had some followers on social media and so on. But he as a person was also interested, of course, in what's going on in this field. And so he thought our work is important and he took part in that campaign. And yeah. It was a good “trick” in a way.
We also, at the same time, had prepared this like declaration of a climate health emergency in Finland. It was signed by a lot of mental health associations. Also, some [trade] unions, if I remember correctly. So we kind of published that one. There was this event where the Shouting Man told people how to express their eco-emotions, by shouting, of course. Yeah. And the national TV and so on picked [it] up. That was [a] good thing. I don't think it's a special Finnish characteristic or anything to shout out emotions. I see some level of humor there because I think generally we’re considered [to be] like a little bit emotionally restricted people. So like, shouting goes to the other end, right away. And it's like a funny way to express what you say, if you otherwise are a little bit hesitant.
Doherty: Yeah, I'd encourage listeners to—we'll have links to [the Shouting Man]. And we'll wrap up here in a moment. And we can go a little over our time because we have extra guests and things. But we'll have links to all these programs in our show notes. The formal programs in Finland so people can learn about these. And also the Shouting Man. It's nice to see this person. And we all need a little bit of a shouting man in our lives. You know, this catharsis.
I was thinking of primal scream therapy. The old therapy that was developed in the 70s in the—I don't know where. Maybe in the US with Arthur Janov. That was kind of known. A lot of musicians and artists have done primal scream. And that's not surprising, you know. Expressive people will gravitate to that. But it's the idea of catharsis. It’s letting it all out. The band Tears for Fears, have an old song called Shout [“Shout, shout, let it all out.”] They were actually influenced by primal scream therapy. It's a little trivia point.
As I think about this, now, I think about where I'm going to use this in the future. And when I talk about this in our groups, there is always someone that's going to be the “shouting man” in any group. And sometimes we're the shouting man. Or sometimes other people are. But we have to honor the shouting man or the shouting woman, I guess is one way to take this going forward. It is kind of a spectacular thing that draws attention. And, you know, kind of a media thing. But it is also pretty primal. And so I think—I mean I might be wrong, but I think a lot of listeners have felt like that over time. They just want to scream. So I think we should make a place for that. Yeah. This is great. Yeah.
Pihkala: Yeah, we can link the famous Norwegian painting by Edvard Munch, The Scream, also with episode notes. And that's constantly popular as an internet meme. Also, because you can link with that expression. I think that's related to what Thomas is saying. It's such a primitive and stable part of us that sometimes we would really need to do that.
But that also brings us nicely to an important topic that we might close this slightly extended episode with which is coping with matters. And I know from our earlier history, that Taneli you, for example, do music, personally, also. Not just listening, but also doing it. I'm also doing it not as prominently externally, but still. But perhaps giving the floor first to Sanni. Would you like to say something about the ways that you use for coping with both, you know, the stress that your work also sometimes brings. Even though it's also rewarding, I know. But, you know, with eco-emotions in general. So would you like to speak a bit about that?
Saarimäki: Yeah. To me personally. And also many of my students and other people I meet in these issues, it's about connecting. And feeling the real connection with ourselves, of course, but to other people as well. And nature. Finding ways to also see your own important part there. Even though sometimes it might be very small. But it's still vitally important. And my own eco- and climate anxiety has gotten better in these past five years. When I've been actually feeling that I do something. And I do something meaningful. And I'm part of something meaningful. And I do something according to my values. And I don't need to be perfect in it. But it's enough what I do now. And yeah. It gives me a lot of joy. So connection. And also that self compassion there.
Saari: I can also. I feel really good when I see new people come and join Tunne ry's activity, for example. There are these really bright, young up and coming psychologists, for example, who will do these things a lot better than me and Sanni have already. And it's really nice to see that there's a platform that you have been a part of creating. And then there's new people [who] are willing to join that. And they have ideas. And that feels really good. And one thing that came to my mind about the shouting part still. And Panu also referred to music. I have a background in music. I used to listen to a lot of punk and rap music when I grew up. And I played, for example, in hardcore punk bands, which are all about screaming. So I know how much it helps when you think about everything that's wrong. Yeah. So it's very helpful.
Pihkala: Thanks for sharing. That's very profound. And I hear that you have both found meaning in these activities. Perhaps even purpose if we use that word. But that's up for the listeners. And sort of holistic or embodied methods. This is, of course, something that Thomas has been writing and talking about also for many years.
Doherty: Yeah, so this is great. This has been a great conversation. So we're talking about community and, you know, all the work that Sanni and Taneli [are] doing is really about bringing people together so they're not isolated. The students are not isolated. And these groups are not isolated. And so there's a community aspect. And then, you know, our emotions. And bringing out emotions into ourselves. And being close with our emotions. and then taking our actions, you know, as we can. And then channeling our nervous system and giving ourselves an outlet. Either through our own shouting or listening to music or viewing art that illustrates that catharsis.
So this is a really nice, beautiful picture that we painted today. Well, thanks again. I will again share our information. We'll share all the information about this program. And I hope this can inspire more work in Finland and also around the world. And I know there are other people doing these kinds of things in the world. So do reach out. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And if we hear about more programs around the world, we'll be happy to share that information. But I'm really pleased with our talk today. Thank you so much. Panu, do you have any last thoughts or anyone else have any last thoughts?
Pihkala: Kiitos paljon [thank you very much], Taneli ja Sanni.
Saarimäki: Thank you.
Saari: Thank you, Panu.
Doherty: Take care, everyone. Be well and thank you for listening.
